Whole heartedly agree with Mr. Musk! Our state (and country) is suffering greatly from these fear mongers and so called “officials.” OPEN CALIFORNIA now or we’ll all sue!

Dear Elon

Please Move

History will look back on these times and say that we completely overreacted to coronavirus.

"Please Move"

Tesla employs over 10,000 workers alone at its Fremont plant.

But yeah, let just forget about all those people and watch Musk move to Texas or Nevada and lose all that tax revenue.

Dan

Yep, rallies in Washington State are ramping up...perhaps, we are not far behind. Small business is floundering...going fishin.

@Wombat,

I hope so.

Elon is the rational one in this debate.

Stop and think about that for a moment.

He is Bluffing!

Michael Austin,

Most likely. No easy task to pick up and move a car factory of that scale.

Wombat, history will say we reset ourselves as a nation. New York City history was an under reaction...to Covid-19. Where to draw the line...? Bringing back primary manufacturing operations of our Country is vital.
Texas will not be Elon Musk’s first choice to move company...where pot possession above a small amount is still a felony

@Bobb,

It’s easy to move a plant of that size. As Toyota, they moved and had a plant open in Missiooi within 6 months and added Tacoma production to their San Antonio plant. California is very difficult to do business in.

Petem "California is very difficult to do business in. "

No argument there.

I think he is just being Elon Musk, though.

"For the life of me, I don’t understand why Elon couldn’t wait a few more days.'

Web Link

Because Tesla doesn’t make money and he is running out of cash is why.

Tesla new model S has a pre paid waiting list or commitment of fifty thousand plus customers waiting to take ownership.

Because the factory is shut down, he cannot fill those orders. The model S is touted at under $50K

No way Tesla leaves Fremont, there is not a ready made factory for him to move into, he will stay and fill his orders.

By way of his litigation, he is after something he does not have, or something he hopes to gain with the threat of litigation.

For those critics that believe Elon Musk is bluffing and will not leave California are living on the moon. Guys like Elon don’t bluff. If he says he is going to Mars- I believe him. You don’t break into the automaker’s business with revolutionary ideas and abilities unless you’re made of something different- something different than we average people. Other states would love to receive this guy. With 30 million unemployed, he fills his workforce in a day.

Gavin Nausea never built anything. Like his amateur buddy Obama, “you didn’t build this” mentality, Gavin doesn’t understand geniuses as Elon Musk. Gavin never got his hands dirty. He has been a political hack his entire life.

Here is a scary, but very real nightmare: every time we wake up each day, some business in this state calls it quits. This is Nausea’s legacy.

Why aren’t healthy people allowed to be free and those who want to be more cautious make their own decision on what that individually means to them? The constitution was founded on individual freedoms, not groupthink. I get everyone means well, but the constitution is the supreme law of the land.

In one of the web articles, it indicated Tesla had been calling the Alameda County Public Health office repeatedly and none of their calls had been returned.

Sad fact, but this is the way with many government agencies who have absolutely no sense of urgency. Also this is a clear indication (unreturned calls) that the Alameda County public health office are simply way over their head.

From the perspective of many, Alameda County seems to be not taking a leadership role but a following role of another county in the Bay Area. They seem to not even have a handle on what the actual latest specific instructions are on what is in operation and is being phased back in.

No wonder Nordstrom in the mall is closing permanently in Pleasanton and no wonder the Sweet Tomatoes chain is closing everywhere. With such restrictions they are probably being told, there is no way the businesses could re-open without major modifications. For example, I've been told that restaurants have said that all self serve beverage stations would have to be removed in order to re-open dining. Considering self-serve beverage stations are installed in absolutely all fast food and most casual dining locations, does the government realistically think that this is a major cause of COVID-19 or are they completely out of their mind?

I think in this situation, there is no science behind many of these new modification requests. Unfortunately I see a mass exodus of many businesses and corporations out of Alameda County.

Virtually shutting down much of the economy is an overreaction and isn’t even particularly effective at preventing many deaths. It’s using a sledgehammer on a problem that requires a scalpel:

“Covid-19: nursing homes account for 'staggering' share of US deaths, data show” - The Guardian

“Yale professor describes as ‘staggering’ research that reveals more than half of all deaths in 14 US states from elderly care facilities”

Running A Poll

HOW MUCH AND WILL MUSK WIN?

How much will Musk Sue Alameda County For And Will He Win?


$ -0- This will be settled amicably


$ 10,000,000


$ 100,000,000


$ 450,000,000


It will be settled amicably


He will not win because Alameda County is fully justified


He will win and it will start an awakening


Who is MUSK?

Trump clashed with the Governor of Georgia when the Governor decided to open up his State a few weeks ago.

Turns out that Georgias infection rates ARE STILL on the downward trend.

Trump is ABSOLUTELY wrong in pushing for the continuation for lockdowns. I am convinced he's doing it for political reasons. Why? Because if he comes right out and declares the State of Emergency has passed, then you can bet that even ONE DEATH afterward, he will be blamed.

His political card is to hold off until the experts tell him to retract the lock down orders and he will take that advice. That way, he can always point the finger at Fauci.

Its a ridiculous circumstance, but you can thank the Democrats and the media.

"During virtual town hall, Farnitano (county health office for Contra Costa) was asked by a resident if the Bay Area was merely delaying the inevitable, and whether shelter-in-place had already accomplished its goal of not overwhelming the region's hospitals.
"We’re buying time,” he said. “Back in early March, when cases were doubling, we were looking at the prospect of a surge that would overwhelm our hospitals. We’re also buying time for better treatment — there’s no specific drug, but doctors are learning better techniques, which are making a difference on the mortality rate … Even a few months gives our hospitals time to get prepared and allow for more advanced medicine and treatment. So it’s not delaying death, it’s preventing it.”"

Great job in moving the goal posts, Dr. Farnitano. So at first we were told that the purpose of sheltering-in-place was to buy time and slow down the rate of infections so that hospitals wouldn't be overflowed. BUT now the story changes! Now the goal posts have moved and the story is "We’re also buying time for better treatment" with months more of sheltering-in-place, shutting down more businesses, and putting more people out of work.

This is why the chief epidemiologist of Sweden said that Sweden decided against going into "lockdown" or strict sheltering-in-place mode. He said that once a country goes into "lockdown" mode, it's hard for health experts to agree on ending the lockdown. We've seen an example of that right here with Dr. Farnitano and his moving of the goal posts.

@Wombat,

It isn't a game. There aren't "goal posts".

Web Link

"St. Louis Fed's Bullard: US economy can return 'pretty close to normal' in Q4"

Musk could save a lot on taxes if he left California.

Web Link

I really feel bad for the employees at Tesla - I know a few people that work there.

As a startup, I believe Tesla relied on government rebates and the environmental activism of CA to boost his company into profitability.

Now I believe Tesla will reach the maximum number of allowed rebates in 2020 and has had to reduce costs of the cars to compensate.

I'm sure the virus shutdown is really hurting them - maybe the plan for additional cost cutting is to leave CA - a very expensive place to do business. Maybe he has gotten all he can get and it's time for him to move on. Blaming it on the virus shutdown may be a convenient excuse?

Yes BobB, it IS a game.

Wombat is correct and YOU have been miserably wrong throughout this entire event.

One would be shamed if proven incorrect as many times as you have. Not you.

By the way, Elon Musk opened his factory today in defiance of the county rules. He stated that if anyone is arrested, it should be him.

Web Link

Take that.

Dan

@Jakewaters,
How cute, what a little Elon fanboy you are. Hope the koolaid tastes nice.
Have you ever considered that Elon had a type A personality with ability to push people, lots of money, a good idea and he got lucky? Most the time in these situations a type A CEO was in the right place at the right time with their idea and product and had some luck in the process. Not some sort of otherworldly genius. I think Elons luck has run out, he’s out of money and lost a lot of respect in general.

" There aren't "goal posts"."

Now I know this isn't serious.

With and infections and death rates predicted to be in the millions we were told we needed to flatten the curve so that hospitals would not be overwhelmed.

The flattening happened and the infections and death rates did not come. In fact, when herd immunity has been exercised, infection rates and death have not increased.

NOW, we're being told about that we need to continue this lockdown until a vaccine is developed.

THAT'S moving the goalposts.

Elon has set the bar for businesses. Churches are now starting to assemble.

You can't stop liberty, BobB.

Stay in your house my good man/woman. The rest of us will get along fine without you.

Dan

"Most the time in these situations a type A CEO was in the right place at the right time with their idea and product and had some luck in the process."

Yeah Ken, Elon Musk was just at the right place at the right time.

And he makes popular cars and space craft and a whole host of other things people actually want.

But that's all just luck, huh?

Envy and jealousy NEVER looks good on anyone.

You wear it well.

Dan

@Ken

Very immature response. Cute, fanboy, you say? Don’t understand your thoughts, maybe there isn’t anything there of value to understand. Lucky? I believe for him it is preparation at the point of opportunity. The man is a genius, forward thinking, and I recognize his abilities and effort. If you develop any Ken, I will recognize yours. Fair enough?

It isn't a game. Follow the law or get arrested. See something, say something. Musk should be arrested. Probably end up being good publicity for him.

Dan,

Don't be a coward. Follow the rules.

@BobB wrote "Follow the law or get arrested. See something, say something. Musk should be arrested.....Follow the rules."

Your blind, slavish, unquestioning devotion for "rules" and "laws" simply because they happen to be rules and laws would make you a good fit for any authoritarian regime like North Korea or Russia. But in our democratic society, rules and laws are not one-sided decrees imposed from above, but only exist to the extent that we citizens buy into and accept the just nature of the rules and laws.

Already you can see many citizens throughout this country protesting against the unjust nature of some of the rules and laws now being imposed due to coronavirus. These people are not criminals. Most of them have a long history of being law abiding citizens who feel that continued imposition of the current rules related to coronavirus are unjust. Elon Musk is NOT alone. There is also a Dallas salon owner Shelley Luther who defied a coronavirus order because she needed to keep her business alive to feed her children and support her employees. She was arrested and brought before a judge who demanded that she apologize for her "selfishness". She refused and said that wanting to feed and clothe her children and support her employees in doing the same was not "selfish". She stood up for her principles despite the threat of being jailed. There are many other people like her and Elon Musk speaking out against the continuation of the current coronavirus rules and I, a left-leaning Independent, join them. What do you think that you and the government are going to do as our numbers continue to grow because more and more people come to believe that continuation of the present coronavirus rules and laws are unjust? Arrest us all and throw us all into jail?

It takes no courage for a healthy person to put a sick or weak person at risk. Follow the rules. Social distance and wear a mask.

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

@Wombat,

Her children were not in danger of going hungry.


Web Link

BobB,
We take risks with health and exposure in the course of our everyday lives, asking to ensure weak people are not at risk is an unattainable goal.

The right question is, what is the right level of risk we expect normal to reside around and where are we relative to that?

The rights of the weak to avoid risk in life don’t supersede the rights of the healthy to pursue life.

Are the rights of children superseded be their healthy parents right to pursue life?

BibB,

Got news for you. Your not going to live forever. Live a life and prepare for the afterlife. Don’t die in place.

Pete:

How do you know there is an after life?
We know all life ends when we are dead.
There is no evidence of an after life.
Is an after life what many of us cling to through faith with no assurance it is there?

@BobB

So how long are you going to wear a mask, stay in your house, and social distance? A month? 2 months? More. Are you planning on doing this until there is a vaccine?

@Pete,

This isn't about me.

Forget about the weak? Let them die?

Sounds like Nazi Germany and Communist Soviet Union.

Not the United States of America....

What a bunch of selfish [email protected]);s

@Jake Waters,

I will be socially distancing and wearing a mask for as long as health athorities and my employer require it. My employer will send me home if I'm not wearing one. We will also be doing temperature checks and distancing.

@BobB

I get wearing a face mask at work and social distancing based on the demands of your employer, but when away from work, are you going to be wearing a mask and social distancing for as long as Gavin Newsom tells you? Just asking out of curiosity.

I’m with BobB

I will be social distancing from all the people who do not wear masks and do not social distance from me.

I don’t plan on staying locked in my house, but I’m sure as heck not going to put my life at risk for all you people who DO NOT CARE about the people around them.

And I will do this until there is a vaccine, just like I get for the flu, so I can protect myself from this terrible disease and all you uncaring, selfish people.

PP - this is not divisive - it’s calling out all the jerks who are putting my life at risk. It may be selfish of me, but if people don’t care how their actions or lack of action affect me, I’m going to push and fight back. I HAVE A HUMAN RIGHT to Life, Liberty, etc and the uncaring jerks in this town do not have the right to take that away from me.

Snd TS if you don’t like it.

@Karl

Wow Karl, is there a conspiracy to get you? (LOL). Calm down. That vaccine you are waiting for will more than likely have a 50-55% prevention rate. Good luck with that. That’s how it works with the regular flu vaccination. Secondly, all this isolation, distancing, and mask wearing is probably weakening our immune system. Heard immunity is what will save us as it does with the average flu season. Washing your hands and not touching your face is what is going to help you. I’m over 68 and haven’t taken a flu shot in 9 years. Actually, I only took the shot a few times until I realized what garbage they put in it. I certainly am not taking any vaccine shot they issue next year. But hey, it’s your right to do what you need to get by, as it is mine.

Jake,

I suggest you consult with Pete before your demise. He has some thoughts regarding after life!

"Secondly, all this isolation, distancing, and mask wearing is probably weakening our immune system."

That is just completely wrong. That isn't the way it works.

I'm not even going to comment on the anti-vax stuff. That is just complete garbage.

BobB
You have a right to stay home . You do not have a right to force me to.

Stop being selfish, let the kids play on the playgrounds and go to school. Why don’t you care about the children BobB?

@BobB

Please don’t comment, because you don’t know what you are talking about.

@Pleasanton Parent,

Don't be a coward. Follow the rules. Save lives.

@Jake Waters,

Stay away from the anti-vax nonsense. We have enough ignorance in the world.

Go read the FAQ on any public health website. Social distancing doesn't reduce immunity. You have no idea what you are talking about.

@BobB

The Public Health Website? Are you kidding?

Secondly, are you seriously calling @Pleasanton Parent a coward? You’re the one falling apart over a flu.

@Jake Waters,

The risk isn't to me, it is to the vulnerable. It takes no courage to put a weak, old, sick, or feeble person at risk. Don't be a coward. Follow the rules.

Please stick to mainstream medical information, and stay away from the anti-vaxxer and fringe stuff. It really is unscientific garage. Vaccines don't cause cancer or autism. Get your annual flu shot. Stay away from unpasteurized milk.

Web Link

Web Link

PP, I look at it this way—the county and state have put limits on what we can do and where we can go. As restrictions are eased, and if going out means wearing a mask and keeping some measured distance, I will do that. But, I don’t think it is acceptable for me to follow the rules and some other person to decide they don’t have to. So you are right, I don’t personally want to tell anyone to stay home, but I would hope people would not jeopardize me or others who also wish to be out again. I don’t think that is you based on a lot of your comments, but there are people who have stated they won’t comply. And that could end up forcing me to stay home—which is what we are saying, isn’t it? Person 1’s freedoms shouldn’t end up limiting Person 2’s freedoms.

"If we skip over the checkpoints in the guidelines to: 'Open America Again,' then we risk the danger of multiple outbreaks throughout the country. This will not only result in needless suffering and death, but would actually set us back on our quest to return to normal,"

Web Link

I agree with KR. Another way to look at it is that I have the right to own a gun, but I don't have a right to pointed at anybody's head.

This virus is really hitting indigenous peoples hard. Read this article.

Web Link

I disagree with both of you.

What we are really discussing is who is responsible for their health.

Is it everyone’s job to be accountable to protect anyone that is at higher risk for this, or is it that at risk person that is accountable for their additional layers of protection.

Historically we place the responsibility on the known infected and the at risk person. Look at the history of our communicable diseases, never have we made it the responsibility of everyone else to modify their behavior to prevent risk, risk! not even guaranteed transmission.

At first, with so many unknowns, I get it. Today, we know more, we know who is at higher and highest risk, why are we holding up the rest of the world from getting back to life as normal for a smaller subset of the population?

If you’re at risk wear a mask, shop during at risk hrs, stay home, but stop holding my kids back from learning, stop erasing my opportunity to build up to a retirement opportunity, stop preventing the world from progressing because you have risk....not a guarantee, but risk.

I’m done. Elon is absolutely right.

"Look at the history of our communicable diseases, never have we made it the responsibility of everyone else"

That is just wrong. We have vaccine laws exactly for this reason. The supreme Court has backed us up time and again.

Look at Jacobson vs. Massachusetts.

Web Link

"Person 1’s freedoms shouldn’t end up limiting Person 2’s freedoms."

You have this COMPLETELY backwards.

You want to stay inside, then stay inside. You want to wear a mask, then wear a mask.

But don't order the rest of us do the same.

You are FREE to believe and practice what you want. If you feel safe wearing a mask and staying indoors, then you have the freedom and liberty to make that decision on your own.

DO NOT PRESUME you have the freedom and liberty to tell ME how >I< should live.

Dan

Dan, if the state directive is to wear a mask, I expect everyone who goes out to follow that directive. Otherwise, you infringe on everyone else’s right to be outside. If a mask is optional, then I’m fine with what people choose.

But, what is inane, is Newsom saying just moments ago that the state can open malls and office (with modifications), but the Bay Area can determine to keep them closed.

We are only in the second inning.

Web Link

Q. If the epidemic dies down during the summer, can we rest easier?

A. Right now the thing that scares the hell out of me more than anything is that suddenly, in the next two months, cases in the U.S. suddenly drop off dramatically. That would tell me, this may be acting like a flu virus. And if that were the case, you might very well expect to see a late summer/early fall peak that could be much, much more severe than anything we've seen already and much more universal in terms of where it hits and how it hits. We're in uncharted territory. We don't know.

Ok BobB, here is where I will disagree with you—do or don’t. But making a state-wide decision that doesn’t apply to part of the state is ridiculous on it’s face.

Let’s put things in some perspective:

The upper limit of the number of deaths due to coronavirus if we did nothing ranges up to around a million or so. What is the price that we are paying with our SIP mitigation efforts and the virtual shutdown of much of the economy? We have had a $2 Trillion emergency government bailout because of the virtual shutdown of much of the economy, so that works out to a cost of around $2 million dollars for every life that we may have saved with our current approach. Also, we have put over 30 million people out of work with our current approach. That works out to about 30 people who have become unemployed for every life that we may have saved. We have also devastated all the family lives of all those 30 people put out of work for every life saved. Many businesses have also been shut down for all the lives saved. Finally, according to some statistics I found, the average age of those who die of coronavirus is about 75. So that means that most of the lives we are saving with our current approach are lives which are approaching their natural lifespan.

Bottom line: We are totally disrupting the US economy, throwing tens of millions of people out of work, devastating their families, disrupting the schooling and lives of our youth and for what? To save a few more years of life from a normal lifespan for a typical coronavirus victim.

How do we balance the importance of those few more extra years of life with the many years of life ahead to a normal lifespan for all the millions of younger people being thrown out of work and the families that are depending on them?

KR,

I don't disagree that message that went out wasn't clear, but they were putting limits on opening up, similar to what New York state is doing. New York City needs tighter restrictions than rural New York state.

@Wombat,

The upper limits on deaths with doing nothing we're closer to 1.6 to 2 million. That many deaths in a year in the United States would be absolutely devastating to the economy. That would have included many unnecessary deaths due to lack of medical equipment and personnel capacity.

@BobB

As I mentioned, the average age of death of a coronavirus victim that I found was about 75. I doubt that most of those seniors were active members of the US workforce. If you're really truly interested in the US economy and preventing it from being "devastated", you should be more concerned about all the businesses now shutting down and by the tens of millions of younger, active members of the US workforce who have lost and will lose their jobs in our attempts to limit coronavirus deaths among seniors with an average ago of 75.

Need to remember to keep your story straight, BobB !

In what possible way isn't my story straight? There would have been a lot more young people dying had the hospitals and medical facilities all been overwhelmed. People would have been dying of things like appendicitis and car crashes where they couldn't get emergency services. Didn't you read any of the articles? Are you just pretending? Losing that many people would have absolutely devastated the economy.

Nobody is infringing on your right to go outside.

Go ahead and wear a mask outside. Wrap yourself up in cellophane for all I care.

Just stop infringing on everyone else and mind your own business.

Stop being silly.

"The upper limits on deaths with doing nothing we're closer to 1.6 to 2 million."

BULL!!!!

This was where they predicted deaths to be WITH social distancing.

Either you are flat out lying or you don't know what you are talking about, BobB.

Dan

Dan, I don’t appreciate your dismissive attitude on most occasions, but that post was uncalled for. IF the rule is wear a mask and stay at a distance, then follow it. So will I. But IF the rule is masks are optional and distancing is discretionary, I won’t ask you to wear the mask, but I might choose to do so and also to avoid your proximity. That’s how society works; we cooperate.

@ Kathleen Ruegsegger wrote "That’s how society works; we cooperate."

How is that "cooperation" working out for the over 30 million people who are now unemployed with their families as a result of the present coronavirus strategy of adding a few more years of lifespan to a predominantly senior population at their expense, Kathleen?

Moderator:

Please remove Wombat disgusting comment above.

@Michael Austin

There was nothing wrong or "disgusting" about my post. Just frank, honest points that have to be made in a topic of this nature in which hard decisions have to be made about tradeoffs between different groups of people in society.

I suspect that my comment about "seniors" touched a nerve with you. Well, guess what? I'm a senior, too. But I also pride myself on intellectual honesty and facing reality, and the honest reality of the situation is that the death of someone like me who is retired from the active workforce and who is now beyond the age of raising and supporting a family doesn't have as much of a negative impact on society as the death of a relatively young worker who is making a living and supporting a family. That's just the way it is. That's not "disgusting". That's reality.

I don’t think there was anything wrong with wombats comment, there is an unsettling discussion on the value of life (gov uses $10m/per) and that is prorated to age . You may not like it, but it’s a fact. Applying that to the at risk population vs economic impact is an important balancing act/calibration activity.

How you choose to make decisions is open obviously, but we typically have done this level of precaution for other things.

There is no right against becoming sick; there are rights for being able to earn and provide for family. Data supports dropping our level of prevention, and state behavior to fed, county behavior to state, only set precedent for individual behavior to county.

What right do you have to tell me what to do when you pick and choose what rules you’re going to follow

@Michael Austin

Because I believe in the world of god and my lord Jesus Christ. In my opinion, at your age of 75, you should reflect on where you are at and what your beliefs truly are. Not judging and my the dear lord bless you.

Wombat, It’s a false choice. My early demise doesn’t get anyone off of unemployment. Arguably, we have to find the right balance. I am not against opening up the economy. We can close off Main Street to traffic and let downtown business spill into the street to allow us to dine at a distance while helping restaurants hit their economics (better than 50% seating)—rumor is that is exactly what is being talked about in Dublin, Livermore, and Pleasanton. We can wear masks and social distance. We can try a variety of things for some prescribed weeks before trying whatever the next stage Might be. We can ask the vulnerable, whomever they are, to shelter in place if they can. If that is a financial burden, perhaps we look at using all the unemployment money we might save to help them.

Seems to me there are so many reasonable approaches.

One other thing Wombat, some of our essential workers—young, vital, many with families—are dying. Doctors, nurses, meat packing plants, Amazon. Should we force people back to work when they don’t feel it is safe?

Wombat:

You are rationalizing in same manner as Timothy McVeigh. The guy that blew up the government building in Oaklahoma City.

When asked about all the babies he murdered, he responded they were "collateral Damage'.

@Kathleen Ruegsegger wrote "One other thing Wombat, some of our essential workers—young, vital, many with families—are dying. Doctors, nurses, meat packing plants"

Please, Kathleen. Not long ago you wrote a post decrying the fact that about 60 doctors in Italy have died of coronavirus, remember? Do you remember how our discussion on that turned out? I showed you that if you consider the fact that Italy has about 400,000 doctors, then the number of Italian doctors who have died of coronavirus is comparable to the number of Italian doctors that would be expected to die of the common flu in a typical year. I would have thought that you would have remembered that lesson and wouldn't have repeated that mistake.

OK, so now you want to make a new claim that "essential workers—young, vital, many with families—are dying" of coronavirus in significant numbers. I challenge you to provide quantitative evidence (not anecdotal stories) that significant numbers of such "young, vital" workers (those are your words) have died of coronavirus.

@Michael Austin

Michael, I think that you're going way off into outer space and so I'm going to have to disregard your comments from now on.

Nice try Wombat. I did not say in significant numbers. The question at hand is do you force people back to work if they do not think it is safe?

As for Italian doctors, I think one person dying is too many, so 82,000 Americans is way too many.

Hi Pete,
According to Wombat, I am already in outer space, God must be some where nearby.
I am baptized Catholic, attended Catholic school all twelve years when growing up.

Hate Hâte Hate that's all u hear here there everywhere this world won't last too much longer thé Man upstairs is fed up

@Kathleen Ruegsegger wrote "Nice try Wombat. I did not say in significant numbers."

Aaah. So you concede the the relative number of such people dying of coronavirus is not significant. OK, we're making progress. But previously you alarmingly wrote "...some of our essential workers—young, vital, many with families—are dying", which made it sound like there WAS a major crisis - an idea which you now deflate with your confession "I did not say in significant numbers".

OK, thanks for yet another head-spinning experience, Kathleen. I think I need to go get a drink now.

Wombat, I think that was just your interpretation, causing your own head to spin. Still avoided the point — should we force people back to work if they don’t feel it is safe?

"That’s how society works; we cooperate."

You STILL don't understand the basic concepts of liberty and freedom.

Those who want to cooperate can, those who won't, don't have to.

Its the essence of being an American Citizen.

BTW, the government, in the form of the CDC, has been incorrect about 1.) the number of infections 2.) the number of deaths 3.) about the wearing of masks (first saying they weren't going to help, then reversing course) and a whole host of other topics related to the virus.

Your abject following is anathema to freedom and liberty.

I know its sounds too nationalistic, but its true.

Dan, “those who won’t, don’t have to” Depends on specifics. There are consequences if laws are broken. Certainly a choice until caught.

Nobody has the true data on the number of infections; we aren’t testing enough. The number of deaths are confused by what source is used (death certificates versus other reporting). I’d go along with the theory that masks weren’t necessary because (a) there weren’t any (b) they were more urgently needed elsewhere and (c) we were asked to shelter in place, limiting their need in the general populace.

If I agreed with you, would I still be an abject follower? Just who/what am I following? If you are implying current restrictions—well, sure, I’m considered to be in an at risk age group. Luckily, following the rules is easier for me than it is for many if not most.

Kathleen,
Fair enough, not enough testing, but all data supports the number of people that have had or have it is greater than what is reported. So does it really matter for purposes of directional decision making?

This is a classic example of science vs practical decision making. Science wants all data to prove / disprove before making a decision. ....as science should. But practical risk accepting decisions look at what if more, what if less, what would I do in either situation. We generally are all accepting the infection rate is greater than what is reported. So now the only question is would the amount of infected people greater than known impact the resulting action.

We know directionally what that is going to look like. No need to wait. Especially when trillions are being lost in delays

PP, I have some concerns about opening up, but then, again, I am able to stay home for the most part. And regulated or not, I would likely distance and wear a mask in stores even if it isn’t required. Trying to put a value on any one person’s life is like trying the Trolley Problem in real life. I would think we can see the problem far enough in advance to untie the one person on the track rather than running over them as a sacrifice to save the many.

"Nobody has the true data on the number of infections; we aren’t testing enough. The number of deaths are confused by what source is used (death certificates versus other reporting). I’d go along with the theory that masks weren’t necessary because (a) there weren’t any (b) they were more urgently needed elsewhere and (c) we were asked to shelter in place, limiting their need in the general populace."

Once again Kathleen you keep proving my point.

Nobody knows anything. Just keep going with the "theory you like best, nobody will fault you for that.

Just STOP asking me to do the same. I don't agree with the "theories" you agree with.

Its a matter of risk tolerance. You want 0 risk and that's good for YOU.

For a Nation? Not so much.

Dan

Dan, this is pretty simple: I can stay home or wear masks and distance if I go out, even if it isn’t required. I’m fine with opening things up. If there are requirements of us in order to do that, I expect you to follow any that may apply to you.

Alameda County says Tesla can open next week:

Web Link

Tesla says it is already open and the parking lot is full.

So what is the deal here?

Why does the county allow a business like Tesla to open, but most other small businesses must remain closed?

Does anyone who favor the lock down understand the hypocrisy of this decision?

Do you even want to question this move?

I really want to know.

Dan

If the county health department applies standards to a car company and allows it to continue operations. Why can't a small business be held to the same standards?

Why Tesla, but not JCPenney or the Mall, for instance?

Do any of the nannies on this thread want to answer that question?

Dan

Sure, Dan. It’s ridiculous.

I can pick up food in a box, but not a blouse in a box at Nordy’s; I can go to Target where I can buy food and household items, but not Penny’s where there isn’t food, but there are bath towels.

If employees aren’t being coerced by Musk and want to work, I’m fine with their choice. I just hope they are safe.

Your sarcasm is duly noted.

Dan

Alameda County:

"NO BUSINESSES EXCEPT FIRST RESPONDER AND ESSENTIAL BUSINESSES FOR AN INDEFINITE TIMEFRAME!"

Tesla:

"We're opening today."

Alameda County:

OH, OK. YOU CAN OPEN TODAY, BUT NOBODY BUT FIRST RESPONDER AND ESSENTIAL BUSINESSES FOR AN INDEFINITE TIMEFRAME!"

These are the people we elect and to whom we pay our taxes.

Dan

Dan, that wasn’t sarcasm. I genuinely think those examples make sense.

Sorry, DON’T make sense.

Kathleen you may not like it but the government values a life at $10m . Prorate by remaining expectancy to avg age of life.

I didn’t make it up, it’s what they have done.

Didn't think you made it up, PP. I just don't think that way about people.