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Pleasanton: Council delays environmental consultant contract for mall apartments project

City staff urges modifications to Simon's plans for 486 units at Stoneridge

The Pleasanton City Council on Tuesday held off on hiring an environmental consultant to review the proposal from Simon Property Group to build nearly 500 apartments and other amenities on land the company owns at the Stoneridge Shopping Center.

The proposed contract with FirstCarbon Solutions was listed on the council's consent calendar, but city staff requested at the beginning of the meeting that the matter be postponed indefinitely. City Manager Nelson Fialho told the Weekly afterward the delay occurred because of city officials' concerns with Simon's initial design proposal.

"We need to work with them on the design before we place the contract back on the agenda," he said.

Fialho, speaking generally about the proposal, said "it doesn't fit the expectations that we have. It's not uncommon for someone to submit a pre-development application and for us to spend months working through it. So, we want to get that nailed down before we initiate the (consultant) contract."

Fialho said he anticipates the contract with FirstCarbon will return to the council by the end of the year.

Simon representatives had not responded to a request for comment on their apartment complex proposal as of Wednesday morning.

Few specifics about Simon's development plan have been revealed publicly since the firm applied for a planned unit development (PUD) development plan approval on Aug. 21. The council was presented with a three-page staff report outlining only basics of the new application, focusing more so on the environmental review contract instead.

The initial proposal calls for constructing 486 apartment units, a new parking garage and related site improvements on a southeast portion of the Stoneridge Shopping Center property, assistant city manager Brian Dolan wrote in the staff report.

In a follow-up interview, city planning manager Ellen Clark clarified that the apartment complex would replace the parking lot between the old Sears building and Macy's near the intersection where Stoneridge Mall Road loops back onto itself. The new parking garage, located closer to the mall side, would be a combination of spots for Stoneridge patrons and apartment residents.

That part of the mall property has been long been linked to potential redevelopment with high-density housing. The site was among nine locations across Pleasanton designated or rezoned for future large-scale residential as part of the city's 2012 Housing Element update, according to Dolan.

FirstCarbon Solutions, already familiar with the Stoneridge housing site, is city staff's preferred consultant to lead the forthcoming environmental analysis, which would be an addendum to the supplement environmental impact report finalized in 2012 for the Housing Element, Dolan said.

The proposed contract with the firm that was pulled from the council agenda Tuesday called for a maximum amount of $93,275, to be paid for by Simon.

Earlier this year, Simon also received city approval to demolish the now-vacant Sears building and parking garage the company owns at the mall and replace them with a movie theater, grocery store, a lifestyle health club, an outdoor courtyard, and new retail and restaurants.

The Sears site redevelopment has not begun yet. Clark said her understanding is Simon plans to wait to start work there until after its apartment project is approved.

In other business

* The only full discussion item on the council's agenda Tuesday was a proposed ordinance to update city regulations for massage establishments.

The ordinance, unanimously endorsed by the council, is designed to phase out the existing massage technician permit program issued by the Pleasanton Police Department in favor of requiring California Massage Therapy Council (CAMTC) certification for all massage practitioners in the city.

It also creates new operational requirements for massage businesses aimed to protect the health and safety of customers and prevent unlawful activities such as prostitution and human trafficking, according to city staff.

"It's really too bad because I know some massage therapists that donate their time to charities, they donate their time to hospitals. And it's really too bad that this industry has been hijacked by some of the most unsavory people on the planet ... human-trafficking of kids," Mayor Jerry Thorne said.

"Even though there may be some special regulations here that may not apply to other businesses, I think it's appropriate that we do our very best to protect the health and safety of the public," he added.

The new massage ordinance would likely take effect in mid-October, after a required second reading and final adoption vote Sept. 17. The council is also repealing the existing urgency ordinances put in place last year to halt new or expanded massage establishments in downtown while city staff worked to create the new, citywide massage regulations.

* Nearly 50 Muslim-Americans turned out to the meeting as the council presented a proclamation in support of August as Muslim Appreciation and Awareness Month in Pleasanton.

The council also approved proclamations for National Senior Center Month and Constitution Week on Tuesday night.

* As part of the 11-item consent calendar, council members approved the second reading and final adoption of two ordinances related to the 2019 Downtown Specific Plan Update, which the council first endorsed two weeks ago. Councilwoman Julie Testa recused herself, following state regulators deeming she lived too close to the DSP area.

* Also on consent, the council confirmed the 2020 officers for the Pleasanton Business Improvement District, who also act as the executive committee for the Pleasanton Downtown Association.

They will be president Bryan Bowers (downtown property owner), president-elect Terri Terry (Cellar Door), past-president Jim DeMersman (Museum on Main), treasurer Todd Utikal (SideTrack Bar + Grill) and secretary Bernie Billen (community volunteer).

Other consent business included a $3.34 million contract with Imperial Maintenance Services over the next three years to provide custodial services at 27 city-owned buildings, 17 public restrooms and Museum on Main; an additional $149,000 (for $241,544 total) to Toole Design Group for designing alternatives for the West Las Positas Boulevard bicycle corridor plan; and a $155,550 agreement with Vintage Contractors to resurface basketball courts at Meadowlark and Ken Mercer Sports parks.

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Comments

9 people like this
Posted by Bill
a resident of Old Towne
on Sep 5, 2019 at 9:38 am

I don't think the area can handle the additional traffic! Just what Pleasanton needs 500 additional apartments, NOT!


2 people like this
Posted by Kathleen Ruegsegger
a resident of Vintage Hills
on Sep 5, 2019 at 10:03 am

Kathleen Ruegsegger is a registered user.

The growth will come eventually. Here is an interactive map that predicts as far as the year 2100. Difficult on a phone, but you can slide the scale from 2010 to 2100. Then you can zero in on the Bay Area as well. Lots of maps available about sea level rise, another wrinkle. Web Link

We won’t be able to say no, so we better be smart about it now.


2 people like this
Posted by Kathleen Ruegsegger
a resident of Vintage Hills
on Sep 5, 2019 at 11:21 am

Kathleen Ruegsegger is a registered user.

I should add, smarter now must include providing solutions for added traffic and absolutely NOT allowing elementary schools of over 700. The board committed to schools at that size or smaller, and we must be vigilant in not allowing them to change that commitment.


8 people like this
Posted by DKHSK
a resident of Bridle Creek
on Sep 5, 2019 at 2:47 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

So Workday, Mall, now 500 apartment units and all the traffic that comes with it...

...AND STILL NO COSTCO!!!!

Dan


2 people like this
Posted by Kathleen Ruegsegger
a resident of Vintage Hills
on Sep 5, 2019 at 3:03 pm

Kathleen Ruegsegger is a registered user.

Maybe Costco could put an elementary school inside it.


2 people like this
Posted by James Michael
a resident of Val Vista
on Sep 5, 2019 at 3:22 pm

James Michael is a registered user.

I agree, Dan, except that traffic was just a smoke screen...it was always about that gas station on the Costco lot.

And KR, maybe Costco should ante up for a new school and the land to build it on. But so should every other developer who wants to build in Pleasanton. I say no more building until the developers build a school in North Pleasanton and East Pleasanton.

I also have a question and I'm not clear on the answer because I've read and heard different answers. I think KR probably knows the truth but...Can commuters who work in Pleasanton enroll their kids in our schools even though they don't live in the PUSD?


1 person likes this
Posted by DKHSK
a resident of Bridle Creek
on Sep 5, 2019 at 4:00 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

James Michael,

Respectfully, I think requiring developers to build schools because of incompetent political governance is a bad idea.

All it does is pass the buck and excuse past/current mismanagement and corruption.

Unfortunately we, the citizens, will always pay for government incompetence.

Dan


Like this comment
Posted by Michael Austin
a resident of Pleasanton Meadows
on Sep 5, 2019 at 6:58 pm

Student transfers from other communities into PUSD schools of parents that work in Pleasanton, I estimate is one third of the PUSD schools population.


6 people like this
Posted by Kathleen Ruegsegger
a resident of Vintage Hills
on Sep 5, 2019 at 7:22 pm

Kathleen Ruegsegger is a registered user.

Dan, you first. If we don’t expect developers to mitigate the growth they create, then all of us keep paying, for, ever. And even if developers pay, it is not enough. So we will all pay, for, ever.

JM, yes, it’s called the Allen Bill, I think (leaning on memory there). IF there is space available, the district accepts an inter district transfer in. Generally, the receiving district also gets about 70% of the per student income from the sending district. It’s a pretty good deal. Think of stretching a spaghetti meal for a surprise guest, just throw a few more noodles in the pot. If you already have a facility and a teacher and a book and a desk, the overhead isn’t that much.

The problem is, the county decided if you accept a student, say in Kindergarten, the child is allowed to stay through fifth grade before applying for middle school. Rinse and repeat. Now, let’s say two days later a family moves in across the street from the school and they have a kindergartner. But there’s no room for that child now. That family has to drive their student across town, maybe for his/her entire elementary education, to where there is room.

We had more than 200 students who couldn’t attend their neighborhood schools. There are a variety of reasons, but this one reason should be stopped. An absolute moratorium at all grade levels. Because we really don’t have room.


1 person likes this
Posted by Kathleen Ruegsegger
a resident of Vintage Hills
on Sep 5, 2019 at 7:32 pm

Kathleen Ruegsegger is a registered user.

Michael, we have about 15,000 students TK-12. There is no way there are 5,000 students from outside Pleasanton.

There should be an enrollment update at the next board meeting. September 10. We will be able to see the agenda for that meeting sometime tomorrow.


3 people like this
Posted by Michael Austin
a resident of Pleasanton Meadows
on Sep 5, 2019 at 8:39 pm

Kathleen,
PUSD board members have not responded to my request for the real numbers. My one third estimate is intended to counter the PUSD non response.


3 people like this
Posted by Reality Bites
a resident of Del Prado
on Sep 6, 2019 at 12:22 pm

Reality Bites is a registered user.

I understand the impact on schools for new development, but what I never hear about is the impact on other infrastructure like sewage, water, and power. What is the impact to our sewage treatment facility, fresh water availability, and power needs with the addition of 500 apartments? New homes are required to have solar, but I do not think that extends to apartments. I think it should. Developers should be required to pay for sewage and water system upgrades, but I just don't believe that is happening.


1 person likes this
Posted by sjd
a resident of Livermore
on Sep 6, 2019 at 2:06 pm

"Developers should be required to pay for sewage and water system upgrades, but I just don't believe that is happening."

New development subsidizes existing development due to Prop 13, and commercial subsidizes residential of all types.

Here's the fee schedule:
City and Zone 7:
www.cityofpleasantonca.gov/gov/depts/cd/permit/fee.asp
Schools:
Web Link

Almost $150k in fees + at a minimum $18000 in school fees for a 2000sqft house.


3 people like this
Posted by Patriot
a resident of Birdland
on Sep 6, 2019 at 4:36 pm

Dublin is building a new High School! So it can be done....only not for Pleasanton students! Good those chrome books work in our over crowded classrooms and wooden modules.


Like this comment
Posted by DKHSK
a resident of Bridle Creek
on Sep 7, 2019 at 2:55 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

Kathleen,

"Dan, you first"

What the sam hill are you talking about? I DO PAY FIRST, that's the whole point, Kathleen. We pay a lot in sales tax, property tax and fees to fund EVERY stinking infrastructure project the government wants. You know what? It's NEVER enough!

Gas taxes that are to go to repairing roads?
Inefficient solar farms?
Medi-cal coverage for illegal immigrants?
etc..
etc...

Heres a tip for those of you who've only worked in government and quasi-government positions: PRIVATE SECTOR MUST TAKE A RISK IN INVESTMENTS. You people don't, therefore you don't understand.

I personally know a developer who lives here in town. He would NEVER build something on a piece of land that he owned unless he had DEMAND. Otherwise, he'd just hold onto the land because he's not paying the taxes he would if he built a structure.

Why on EARTH should he be forced to pay for a new school? I mean, how greedy does one class of citizen have to be to tell other citizens or businesses that THEY MUST pay for government buildings out of their own pocket AFTER TAXES?!

We already pay taxes for government to do those very things! And then we're asked by that same government to vote for long-term bonds that now everybody is complaining about because they didn't quite read the fine print and won't get the services they were promised.

You people have gone insane!

As I've mentioned before, I'm a high tech exec not a developer. Leave the damned developers alone. If they don't build, you don't come. End of story.

Dan


Like this comment
Posted by Kathleen Ruegsegger
a resident of Vintage Hills
on Sep 7, 2019 at 2:59 pm

Kathleen Ruegsegger is a registered user.

Whoa Dan, I was responding to you first, before JM. I actually think we agree on this topic. Isn't that what I said, that we all end up paying forever?


2 people like this
Posted by Grumpy
a resident of Vineyard Avenue
on Sep 7, 2019 at 7:00 pm

Grumpy is a registered user.

Dan,

Kathleen's statement was clearly just saying she was taking your points first.

Clearly, this issue means a lot to you personally. But, I do want to point out that land planning was a feature of colonial America before we became a nation, and has continued to this day, as part of the English-derived tradition. I'm not sure why you see it as one class against another, but it is as fundamental to America as the language we speak and the principles of law we hold.

And public schools paid for by taxes are a fundamental part of it. So I can't picture what your ideal society is that you think we've departed from, but it was never a part of America.


3 people like this
Posted by Nono
a resident of Del Prado
on Sep 7, 2019 at 9:13 pm

Bad idea. Stop this housing madness. If you live here, and commute almost anywhere on the peninsula, you should understand the effect of business, the influx of high density housing and the problems (traffic) it creates.


Like this comment
Posted by DKHSK
a resident of Bridle Creek
on Sep 8, 2019 at 10:03 am

DKHSK is a registered user.

Kathleen,

“If we don’t expect developers to mitigate the growth they create, then all of us keep paying, for, ever.”

This is why I took you to disagreeing with my point. Developers pay their tax obligations just like everyone else. Requiring them to also be responsible for building schools, in lieu of developing other properties is ridiculous. It’s just another “pay to play” scheme.




Like this comment
Posted by Kathleen Ruegsegger
a resident of Vintage Hills
on Sep 8, 2019 at 11:10 am

Kathleen Ruegsegger is a registered user.

You know developers pass those costs on to the buyers, the actual people who are our newest residents.


1 person likes this
Posted by Sam
a resident of Stoneridge
on Sep 8, 2019 at 1:50 pm

New growth should pay for its own impacts or existing residents will get hit with taxes in the form of bonds. Existing homes have already paid their impacts, everyone continues to pay for services in the form of property taxes. If impact fees are not paid by new development new homes will not be cheaper, the developer will simply absorb more profit, and existing homes will be less affordable because of the additional taxes required to pay for infrastructure.
Why would City Council even consider 500 new residents now, haven't we already exceeded our State requirement for now?


1 person likes this
Posted by DKHSK
a resident of Bridle Creek
on Sep 8, 2019 at 7:11 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

Kathleen,

"You know developers pass those costs on to the buyers, the actual people who are our newest residents."

Which the buyer WILLINGLY pays.

Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with what a free market stands for?

Nobody buys anything unless they see value. Let's say you now tell developers that along with building a Costco, that now they have to build a school. The developer looks at all his costs, nets out what he makes and decides if he can make money. If he can't make money, then guess what? He doesn't build the costco (residents suffer) and the city doesn't get a free school (residents suffer).

Its a stupid idea, but wait, there's more.

Let's say the developer and city officials get together and figure out a sweet tax deal that benefits the developer and his bottom line. Guess what: because the developer gets a tax deal, the city coffers will get less because now the developer isn't paying the taxes he might have if he just developed the land in the first place. Now, we don't get pot holes fixed, parks don't get maintained...etc.

And WHO suffers? The taxpaying citizens.

All because you and others like you don't want to admit that your government has failed you. They already have tax moneys and bonds numbering in the 100's of millions of $ and they STILL cannot get their act together to buy the land and build a school.

Hell no.

Dan


Like this comment
Posted by James Michael
a resident of Val Vista
on Sep 8, 2019 at 9:32 pm

James Michael is a registered user.

Dan might be ranting, but...I think he's right.


3 people like this
Posted by Kathleen Ruegsegger
a resident of Vintage Hills
on Sep 8, 2019 at 10:42 pm

Kathleen Ruegsegger is a registered user.

Dan, I’m not sure what you are arguing about. Fees on developers, and side agreements for higher fees, and gifts of land have been in place for schools for a long time. And the city and Costco did figure out a sweet deal, to the tune of $20MM. And all of us have been paying local and state bonds to try to maintain what we value, like schools. So even when developers and cities chip in, the biggest burden falls to taxpayers. Just locally we have been paying the bond of 1988, 1995, (both about to retire in 2020 and 2021) and 2016. And PUSD wants another $120MM in 2020, with why not as the major justification. So taxpayers are on the hook until 2046 and it will, at some point, go beyond that if they can. And there’s no rebuild started at Lydiksen and no new school and schools are falling apart from past neglect.

So, yeah, until I see boards and councils leading rather than being herded like sheep by staff, my answer also is no.


Like this comment
Posted by DKHSK
a resident of Bridle Creek
on Sep 8, 2019 at 10:52 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

Kathleen,

"So, yeah, until I see boards and councils leading rather than being herded like sheep by staff, my answer also is no."

Oh...they're leading alright...leading the taxpayers by the nose.

Dan


Like this comment
Posted by Kathleen Ruegsegger
a resident of Vintage Hills
on Sep 9, 2019 at 10:33 am

Kathleen Ruegsegger is a registered user.

Well, they are in front, but they are being pushed from behind. That’s not leading. There are a few who scrutinize more closely, ask tougher questions, ask for additional information, and vote no. They are in the minority.


Like this comment
Posted by DKHSK
a resident of Bridle Creek
on Sep 9, 2019 at 4:33 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

Kathleen,

That they are pushed from behind is a character flaw FOR THEM, not for those doing the pushing.

Don’t wanna get pushed? Don’t accept the pushing.

Simple.

Dan


Like this comment
Posted by Barry
a resident of Alisal Elementary School
on Sep 11, 2019 at 8:48 pm

Barry is a registered user.

Kids of Pleasanton residents (And I don’t mean paying friends to use their Pleasanton address) should be top priority over people who work only in Pleasanton but live elsewhere!
Yes builders pass the higher costs along to the buyer. That’s because In addition to high fees and land prices, it takes years, tons of analyses and hearings at great expense to get anything built even if it is a benefit to the community like senior housing.


1 person likes this
Posted by Pleasanton Parent
a resident of Pleasanton Meadows
on Sep 11, 2019 at 10:55 pm

I really dont understand why residency requirements haven't been scrutinized at a higher level given our schools impacted status.


2 people like this
Posted by Valley
a resident of Stoneridge
on Sep 12, 2019 at 2:26 pm

The school discussion aside, it's amazing how many commenters here are just reacting in a nativist fashion, like every potential development invokes fear in them. But you weren't complaining when your own development came in, were you?

Regardless of what one feels about the pace of growth in general, the reality is that cities like Pleasanton have approved much more commercial and office development than residential, contributing to the a regional jobs/housing imbalance. That is the single biggest root cause of regional traffic issues than the sheer amount of developments. If the proposed apartment development enables people that are employed in Pleasanton (for example at nearby Workday), it will mitigate traffic more than exacerbate it. And if the other proposed elements (including a grocery store and existing adjacent amenities) are in place, the new residents will need to rely even less on the automobile. Also of note is that the number of units proposed are about the same as those in the existing apartment complex across the street built circa 1989.

I wonder how many of the commenters that are complaining about traffic live car-free and instead walk and take public transit? Didn't think so. So please stop being a part of the problem, and help become a part of the solution instead.

It's time for our community to be growing up instead of growing out. I haven't seen this specific proposal itself, but if the design respects the scale and architecture of the general neighborhood, I'm all for it.


2 people like this
Posted by Matt Sullivan
a resident of Stoneridge
on Sep 12, 2019 at 2:43 pm

Matt Sullivan is a registered user.

What's missing in this discussion is the bigger picture. It's the tech-driven hyper-growth in the region which is now taking root in Pleasanton. While originally sold as affordable housing for “our firefighters, teachers, and our kids that can’t afford to live in Pleasanton” we now know this was a scam and this housing is meant for tech employees in San Francisco, Silicon Valley, and locally (e.g. Workday and Oracle). Ride BART to SF any commute day or watch the Google-buses leave town south on I-680 and you will understand what I’m talking about. While tech billionaires get richer, and a relatively few tech employees benefit, our infrastructure, transportation systems, and roadways are becoming overwhelmed. Not only does our quality of life suffer, but the GHG emissions generated by this hyper-growth will overwhelm any plans the city has to address this problem through our Climate Action Plan. The City of Pleasanton is complicit in this tech growth bubble because it believes that never-ending growth is the only way to maintain a viable city. Visit South of Market in SF and ask yourself if this is how you would like to live, because if the CEO of Workday gets his way to “Manhattanize” Pleasanton, that’s where we’re headed. If we are to tackle climate change the only way to do it is to recognize that there are limits to growth and start planning to become a truly sustainable city.


Like this comment
Posted by DKHSK
a resident of Bridle Creek
on Sep 12, 2019 at 3:27 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

"If we are to tackle climate change the only way to do it is to recognize that there are limits to growth and start planning to become a truly sustainable city."

Matt Sullivan,

Please explain why Michael Mann, the creator of the infamous hockey stick of climate change, had his lawsuit against a climate skeptic thrown out of court because Mr. Mann refused to show the source data on his "theory"?

Web Link

I'll wait for your informed response. Thanks in advance.

Dan


Like this comment
Posted by DKHSK
a resident of Bridle Creek
on Sep 12, 2019 at 3:32 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

Matt Sullivan, (take 2)

Thank God for Planned Parenthood, eh Matt?

Population control will help save the planet, along with zero growth.

/sarcasm

Dan


5 people like this
Posted by Matt Sullivan
a resident of Stoneridge
on Sep 12, 2019 at 4:10 pm

Matt Sullivan is a registered user.

Dan

My informed response is that it is a waste of time and energy to debate a climate denier at this late stage. No amount of science or currently lived circumstances will shake you out of denial. The fact that this is so widespread - even at the highest level of government - is another barrier to do something of significance to mitigate it.


Like this comment
Posted by DKHSK
a resident of Bridle Creek
on Sep 12, 2019 at 9:23 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

Matt,

Nobodies denying "climate change" Matt. It has changed many times throughout the ages.

My question was VERY SPECIFIC: Why won't the single most prolific cheerleader of man-made warming...oops, I mean "climate change", the man who spurned Al Gore to claim that the ice caps would all be melted by 2014, not want to show his source data and instead, opt to loose in court to a "climate denier"?

Saying you don't know the answer would have been a perfectly acceptable response.

I see you like the low road.

Typical for a -former- politician.

We see right through you.

Dan

ps...I'm old enough to remember "smart" people telling us the world was headed for an ice age.

pss...why did the debate change from "global warming" to "climate change"?

Oh don't worry, I'm just a "climate denier". No need to debate with someone who is anti-science.

D


2 people like this
Posted by sjd
a resident of Livermore
on Sep 12, 2019 at 9:45 pm

Alright, with fairness I think both of you are ridiculous, most particularly Matt because he claims to be for climate action but spreads nonsense fear like "Matthattanization of Pleasanton" and ignores that his strategy simply results in long car commutes from Tracy. It also ignores that the carbon impact of someone living in Pleasanton is a lot lower than someone living in Texas.

And I should spend more time with regards to the Al Gore question because I don't know the answer.

That said, I do have the answer to "but ice age predictions" and "climate change vs global warming" very readily available so I will share it.

The answer to the first objection is "science advances and media reports are not the same thing as science." Web Link

The answer to the second objection is "that was made up by a Republican strategist who has since recanted, and scientists refer to them interchangeably because they refer to different concepts."
Web Link
Web Link

So consider those objections answered.


Like this comment
Posted by sjd
a resident of Livermore
on Sep 12, 2019 at 9:49 pm

Sorry, meant to say "contexts", not "concepts."

Climate change is a local context in that the impacts may not always be the same, while global warming is a global context, meaning global temperature trend.


2 people like this
Posted by Jake Waters
a resident of Birdland
on Sep 15, 2019 at 11:02 am

Jake Waters is a registered user.

DKHSK

You know Dan it was only a matter of time before religion (Climate Crisis, as it is now called) was brought into the mix. I’m surprised it was brought in by the Shell Gas representative, but none the less the card was played. My God, it appears that every debate, conversation, or discussion has to be dumbed down by the Climate Crisis proselyte‘s. I’m waiting for Matt to blame Trump for Costco.

Many of you have offered good points, but I will just follow on the curb to see how far this discussion disintegrates. I’m waiting for the Left turn to the abortion argument.


1 person likes this
Posted by DKHSK
a resident of Bridle Creek
on Sep 15, 2019 at 1:47 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

Jake,

"You know Dan it was only a matter of time before religion (Climate Crisis, as it is now called) was brought into the mix."

Ha! I know. Like 'True Believers.'

But, hit 'em up some facts and immediately they shrivel up and don't want to debate any more.

It would amuse me if it wasn't so pathetic and predictable.

My favorite way to challenge them is to ask them why all the climate change models aren't backwards compatible. Most just slink away after that little whoopsie...

Dan


2 people like this
Posted by sjd
a resident of Livermore
on Sep 15, 2019 at 3:47 pm

"hit 'em up some facts and immediately they shrivel up and don't want to debate any more."

I guess you haven't taken the time to read my links then.

"My favorite way to challenge them is to ask them why all the climate change models aren't backwards compatible."

The word you're looking for is hindcasting, and you're wrong. Climate models are heavily evaluated by hindcasting.

Here, go read page 768: Web Link


Like this comment
Posted by DKHSK
a resident of Bridle Creek
on Sep 15, 2019 at 4:34 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

sjd,

I've read your links...I didn't find any persuasive.

Regarding the IPCC climate change modeling, read this: Web Link

Pull quotes: "In effect, the current global warming software models used by the IPCC and cited by the media wildly over-estimate the warming effects of CO2 emissions. How much do they over-estimate warming? By about 50%. Where the software models predicted a 1.3 C rise in average global temperatures, only a rise of about 0.9 C has actually been recorded (and many data points in that average have, of course, been fabricated by climate change scientists to push a political narrative). In other words, carbon dioxide emissions don’t produce the warming effects that have been blindly claimed by climate change alarmists."

This has been a political op and power grab for a long time. You know it, I know it.

Like I said, once the description changed, the gig was up.

Dan




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Posted by DKHSK
a resident of Bridle Creek
on Sep 15, 2019 at 4:37 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

That you "true believers" think that man has god-like ability to change the climate tells me how high you think of yourselves.

Just remember, we were all supposed to be under a foot of water just a few short years ago and now its been pushed out another 20-30 years. We'll see if you are right and if not, I'll be right here on PW so that I can gleefully rub it in your faces.

Dan


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Posted by DKHSK
a resident of Bridle Creek
on Sep 15, 2019 at 6:42 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

sjd,

I'll posit the same question to you as I did to Matt: Why would Michael Mann of the infamous hockey stick of "global warming" not want to show his work through discovery in court?

Web Link

I'll wait for your response.

One other link for you: Web Link

Two can play the link game, sir/madam.

Thanks.

Dan


Like this comment
Posted by DKHSK
a resident of Bridle Creek
on Sep 15, 2019 at 6:48 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

sjd,

"but now you seem to claim to have the authority to say what is god-like?"

No sir/madam. The god-like claim is directed squarely at those who think humans are the cause (and the cure) for something as complex as "climate-change".

"Preposturous" as you you so claim.

And by the way, if you're so believing in the claims, put your money where your mouth is. Give up all your moderns convieniences; your car; your bike (can't have rubber tires or oiled components), stop buying at the grocery stores; air conditioning...etc.

Honestly, do us all a favor and be the example.

Until then, shut up and stop lecturing me.

Dan


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