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NFL protests have nothing to do with free speech

Uploaded: Sep 28, 2017
The NFL protests have been completely mischaracterized by most of the media as well as players, owners and coaches.
It is not a free speech issue. There’s no such thing as free speech when you are working as an employee unless your boss permits it.
Sadly, that’s where the 49ers management missed it entirely last year when Colin Kaepernick started kneeling during the National Anthem. He was in uniform and on the field—as an employee.
He should have been fined and/or suspended and that would have taken care of it. Of course, that would have required owner Jed York standing up as the employer and exercising his authority. The NFL could have taken a similar action. Instead, both passed and it grew into the current situation, sparked when President Trump told a campaign rally that protesting players should be fired—a sentiment many in America share.
If Kaepernick wanted to protest and did so in downtown San Francisco on his day-off, that’s entirely within his rights and the team would have nothing to say about it.
I learned the truth about freedom of speech years ago as a newspaper editor. The publisher owns the press—not the editor. The buck stopped with the publisher, who had overall responsibility for the enterprise, and I edited the news within the parameters he set. Traditionally, many publishers have taken a hands-off approach when it comes to news coverage, leaving those decisions to editors. I was fortunate to work for this type of publisher.
The protests during last weekend’s games, some involving owners on the field, demonstrated just how out-of-touch the NFL is with average Americans who regard the flag and National Anthem as nearly sacred American symbols and traditions. It also brought politics deep into what traditionally has been stadiums free of such concerns.
NFL television ratings are not what they have been and there are stadiums with empty seats—particularly in Santa Clara where the 49ers were offering $15 tickets to try and get butts into those empty red seats for the Rams last week. In Los Angeles on the opening weekend, the combination of the Rams and the Chargers drew fewer fans than USC did for its home game at the Coliseum. And those owners worked real hard to move—both must be hoping mightily that a new stadium sparks interest.
The NFL, with the statements from commissioner and various owners plus the acceptance of the protests, allowed the Genie to escape from the bottle. Stuffing it back in will be nearly impossible, but we will see what plays out over the next few weeks.
I was listening to one caller on talk radio whose family routinely celebrates football Sundays with a gathering, food and drink. He related that his seven-year-old son saw the protest during the National Anthem and joined with his 10-year-old sister to demand they turn the game off. The kids understand-why not the owners and the players.
So, this evening, tune in for a replay of the President’s Cup or catch a debut of a new season of a TV show—leave the pigskin channel off.

Comments

 +   5 people like this
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Sep 28, 2017 at 8:12 am

Sorry, Tim. When the head of the US Government, the President, starts condemning the peaceful political speech of US citizens, then the matter becomes a Free Speech issue.

"I Understand Why They Knelt"

National Review: Web Link

---------


 +   24 people like this
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Sep 28, 2017 at 8:46 am

DKHSK is a registered user.

Tim,

I couldn't agree with you more.

Compare and contrast what is happening in the NFL with what happened to Brendon Eich a few years ago.

Brendon was the co-founder and CEO at Mozilla corporation and also a practicing Morman. It was discovered that he contributed to the anti-gay marriage proposition (the name escapes me) and for this, he was summarily fired from his job.

He exercised his free speech rights OUTSIDE of his employment and he was hounded out of his position, but where was Sam extolling Eichs free speech rights?

What about the free speech rights of James Damore, whom Google fired because he had a very well thought-out opinion on equality in the work place that Google themselves asked for?

The NFL is protesting ON THE JOB! This is completely different and its a protest based on demonstrably false facts and data.

Sam and others will get on here and lament Trumps getting involved in this culture war, but that's just deflection because what they really want is to shut down any discussion of ideas that differ from theirs. Just look at their responses to those of us who challenge them. Just ask them for data and they go running for the hills!

Sam, you were challenged by "Resident" in Dogfathers thread to listen to that video and, of course, you couldn't bring yourself to discuss what the video said. What is it about substantive discussion that scares you democrats?

Let's talk about the facts surrounding police brutality. Let's talk about crime. Let's talk about "systematic racism" in the United States.

What are you afraid of...facts?

Finally, as a Warriors fan, I'm getting pretty tired of Stephan Curry. I did a google search and as far as I can tell, he (and Steve Kerr) started attacking the President first way back in the early part of this term. You may step back and gasp! at the Presidents response, but let me remind you that President GW Bush allowed the left to attack him and not once did he fight back. A lot of good that did him, because the attacks got worse and worse. I remember "Bushitler" and "McChimpy"

I like that our President fights back. He has my full support.


 +   1 person likes this
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Sep 28, 2017 at 9:36 am

@DKHSK

A rant on YouTube is not a "substantive discussion". Not wasting my time watching any more of those, sorry. Really, what is it with you conservatives and your love of rants on YouTube?

Like I wrote, if the guy really has something substantive to say, then let him collect and organize his thoughts and put them down in a carefully thought out essay. Just showing up in a T-shirt and baseball cap while sitting in a car for an impromptu rant in front of a portable cam for a YouTube video doesn't cut it with me. All it shows is that the guy isn't worth my time.


 +   12 people like this
Posted by Resident, a resident of Laguna Oaks,
on Sep 28, 2017 at 9:38 am

Totally agree with DKHSK.

We'll get all the excuses from the leftists, but god forbid they give you any data to back up their claims that isn't really just an opinion piece.


 +   4 people like this
Posted by Red Claret, a resident of Bordeaux Estates,
on Sep 28, 2017 at 12:20 pm

Thanks Tim, agreed.

(however if my wife asks me to go shopping instead this Sunday I might change my tune, haha)

Too bad everything is so political these days, however less time watching sports will be a net positive for me

I hope Steph is enjoying his posh digs in Alamo.


 +   8 people like this
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Sep 28, 2017 at 12:50 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

"A rant on YouTube is not a "substantive discussion"."

You can't stand when Black Americans shatter your perceptions and want out of your democratic plantation, eh?


 +   3 people like this
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Sep 28, 2017 at 1:10 pm

@DKHSK

LOL! I couldn't care less what the guy's skin color is, but it's obvious that you do. You go ahead and keep trying to play that race card, y'hear? Oh, and congrats to you and "Resident" for finding a black guy on YouTube whose politics you like. That must have been really difficult.

Oh, and if I don't bother to respond to any of your posts from now on then it's a hint to you that I don't consider your posts worthy of a response. Either get your game up or stay in the shallow end of the pool.


 +   3 people like this
Posted by Scott Hale, a resident of San Ramon,
on Sep 28, 2017 at 1:13 pm

Scott Hale is a registered user.

I bet if you took a survey most Americans wouldn't even know WHY they are 'taking a knee'. No doubt they would answer to 'protest Trump', which it ain't about.
and for those who whine and cry about football millionaires taking a knee, unless you are a fan (in person, or via TV) you really have no say. Those who are fans can vote with their eyeballs (change the channel) or their wallets (don't go to a game).
the rest of you can sit down and find something else to complain about. OR think about WHY they are doing it and see the story from their perspective vs just labeling it 'left, liberal' or whatever the current whine and cry labels are today. get a grip and move on.


 +   10 people like this
Posted by Red Claret, a resident of Bordeaux Estates,
on Sep 28, 2017 at 2:27 pm


It didn't help the the high priest of the take a knee movement was known to wear socks with little piggies with police hats on

Doesn't strike me as the brightest of individuals anyway


 +   5 people like this
Posted by Red Claret, a resident of Bordeaux Estates,
on Sep 28, 2017 at 2:33 pm

I'm not always the sharpest knife in the drawer either

however I did predict to the wife the army ranger fella on the steelers would end up walking back his coming out of the locker room for the anthem

and he did, in front of the media like a little schoolgirl saying he's sorry to make his teammates look bad..

so 2017-ish..


 +   4 people like this
Posted by American, a resident of Danville,
on Sep 28, 2017 at 3:21 pm

The biggest hiprocrites are the owners. They regulate EVERYTHING when it affects their income, and there is no " free speech or free expression" when it involves fines for celebrating, fines for dancing in the endzone, fines for wearing wrong shoes, fines for messages on headbands(remember Jim McMahon), and even fines for not showing up at press conferences( Marshawn Lynch). But if it involves disgracing our flag, our military, by kneeling during our national anthem, suddenly they hold their players hands and take knees with them as " free speech". Please!

The only reason the owners suddenly claim we are with you players on free speech is because Trump called for a boycott of the NFL, which scares the heck out of them. What's next, Jerry Jones doing a commercial with Jane Fonda for the ACLU.

Keep taking a knee, professional athletes and owners, and watch your income dry up. It is refreshing to go watch a Stanford football game, a Saint Mary's basketball game, or a Santa Clara baseball game, which is about sports, not overpaid, largely uneducated, professional athletes and their hypercritical owners playing politics. If I want to rant about politics, I will put on CNBC or Fox news. Keep sports free from politics.


 +   3 people like this
Posted by Resident, a resident of Laguna Oaks,
on Sep 28, 2017 at 4:13 pm

Sam,

Truth hurts. Goodbye.


 +   10 people like this
Posted by Resident, a resident of Laguna Oaks,
on Sep 28, 2017 at 4:18 pm

American,

When 5 police officers were assasinated in Dallas, Jerry Jones petitioned the NFL to ask that his team be allowed to wear small patches on their helmets. As you know, the league shut them down.

The double standard is so clear, the hypocrisy so evident that I'm amazed that the same Jerry Jones would try and walk the line with his stunt this past Monday night.

As for me, I'm done watching the NFL and I'm done buying the products that advertise during the games.

To hell with them all.


 +   6 people like this
Posted by Resident, a resident of Laguna Oaks,
on Sep 28, 2017 at 5:10 pm

NFL ticket sales down 17.9% for week 3.

Web Link

To be fair, the LA Rams, Chargers and the 49ers could be a major part of the drop, but an almost 20% drop in tickets is a pretty significant decrease. I predict next week to be around the same if not slightly more due to blowback from last week.

I hope the players keep up their protest, I really do.


 +   4 people like this
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Sep 28, 2017 at 7:39 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

Scott,

"OR think about WHY they are doing it and see the story from their perspective vs just labeling it 'left, liberal' or whatever the current whine and cry labels are today. get a grip and move on."

Please tell us why they are kneeling?

Dan


 +   5 people like this
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Sep 28, 2017 at 8:10 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

According to what I've been reading, the two teams playing tonight did stand for the National Anthem.

Message received. They know where their bread is buttered and the owners got the message.

Now is the time to keep the pressure on.


 +   7 people like this
Posted by Jake Waters, a resident of Birdland,
on Sep 28, 2017 at 9:37 pm

Jake Waters is a registered user.

#Sam

The NFL manual clearly indicates that these players are in violation, and for starters can be fined or removed. They are required to stand, take their helmet off, and remain quiet. These are tax payer funded stadiums, and they are entertainment. What ever the talking points are for ‘oppression,' ‘police brutality,' and ‘inequality,' they haven't made the debate. Fans attend the sports function to escape the daily grind of social, economic, and political issues for 3 to 4 hours depending on the sport. They took that away from us. As mentioned above, their off-time is theirs. You Libs and Dems can try to make this about Trump, but it is not the case. Oh, and by-the-way, Obama make inappropriate comments and also jumped to conclusions, generally about police actions. My gut tells me that there are probably undermining forces at work that helped push these players to do what they can to disrupt America and this administration. Easily to see when you look at all the other BS that is going on. I will be happy when only the families of the players are attending the games. Players are now becoming vocal over twitter and telling fans “We don't need you, stay home." We should listen.


 +   1 person likes this
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Sep 28, 2017 at 10:35 pm

@Jake Waters:

"The NFL manual clearly indicates that these players are in violation, and for starters can be fined or removed. They are required to stand, take their helmet off, and remain quiet. These are tax payer funded stadiums, and they are entertainment. What ever the talking points are for ‘oppression,' ‘police brutality,' and ‘inequality,' they haven't made the debate."

Yeah, as I understand the owners are within their rights to fine or fire the players if they wish. The matter is entirely between the players and their employers.

"Fans attend the sports function to escape the daily grind of social, economic, and political issues for 3 to 4 hours depending on the sport. They took that away from us. "

Sorry. Go ahead and sue them. Or find some other hobbies and interests.

"You Libs and Dems can try to make this about Trump, but it is not the case."

Trump always makes it about himself. He was unwise to inject himself into this matter. It raises the disturbing appearance of the Federal government trying to suppress free speech. The stunt has also backfired on Trump.

"Oh, and by-the-way, Obama make inappropriate comments and also jumped to conclusions, generally about police actions."

I disagree with some of Obama's comments in which he injected himself into police matters, but that's different. Unlike Trump, he never came out trying to threaten people for exercising free speech.

"My gut tells me that there are probably undermining forces at work that helped push these players to do what they can to disrupt America and this administration. Easily to see when you look at all the other BS that is going on."

You're going off the rails.

"I will be happy when only the families of the players are attending the games. Players are now becoming vocal over twitter and telling fans “We don't need you, stay home." We should listen."

Fine with me.



 +  Like this comment
Posted by Pleasanton Parent, a resident of Pleasanton Meadows,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 8:42 am

Pleasanton Parent is a registered user.

Tim - you're absolutely correct in stating the majority of America has lost comprehension of what free speech is, and is meant to do. Both in application between private and public sector as well as - just because you can say it, doesn't mean their aren't consequences for doing so (good and bad).

I also agree the whole standing / kneeling / doing the hokey pokey during the national anthem has completely lost all meaning - what does it "stand" (pun intended) for now?

With that said, I also think our highest office official is completely out of control with the approach and attention he's putting on this.


 +   19 people like this
Posted by Cholo, a resident of Livermore,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 8:54 am

President Trump is incapable of changing his behavior.

He knows how to shift the focus away from himself during the current investigation so pointing the finger to athletes, etc. helps him in the short run. Already, the LIAR is being bit in the B.tt for all his tall tales!

The trump will eventually be IMPEACHED! HOORAY! VIVA AMERICA!


 +   4 people like this
Posted by Jake Waters, a resident of Birdland,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 10:18 am

Jake Waters is a registered user.

#Sam
Not surprised at your remarks. As Paul Joseph Watson says, “Imagine my shock"! You are going to have to fight awfully hard to support the NFL, because you are absolutely ‘off the rails' on this one. I was drafted for Vietnam Nam in 1971, and when you disrespect the flag and dishonor America, well, you have disrespected me. I have free speech as well, and find these players comfortable cowards. You and I are complete opposites when it comes to politics and these issues. Fine. As for Trump, you are going to have to experience what we did with Obama. You are now living our pain during his miserable 8 Years. Good luck, because people like you are going to help re-elect him in 2020.


 +   6 people like this
Posted by Cholo, a resident of Livermore,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 10:41 am

Jake...you are NOT the only American who served in Vietnam. THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE.

Millions and millions of Americans have lost their lives serving our country.

Veterans represent various racial/ethnic groups, not all are US citizens. The majority have served with great respect/dignity. For many, the flag is a symbol of what we value. Respect for the American flag is not the entire story.

President Trump knows how to upset others and create fights when a fight between neighbors is unnecessary. It's important to discuss publicly how devisive he is so as not to be misled, which is to say ABUSED.

The behavior of President Trump is shameful. Trump is the worst president in US History.

SHAME!



 +   2 people like this
Posted by Cholo, a resident of Livermore,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 10:44 am

FREE SPEECH RULES! VIVA! GORA!


 +   2 people like this
Posted by Taxpayer, a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 11:34 am

There should not BE any more 'taxpayer' stadiums, period, This abuse settles it. Taxpayers can throw temper tantrums too, and stop the theft of our hard earned dollars.
I feel sorry for the families that spent paychecks for special, or a first-ever ticket treat, only to get trapped in this misplaced demonstration, by arrogant, over-paid, contract workers hired to perform specific tasks.


 +   1 person likes this
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 11:34 am

@Jake Waters :"As for Trump, you are going to have to experience what we did with Obama. You are now living our pain during his miserable 8 Years."

Uhhhh...aside from the embarrassment of having a President who acts like an immature 6-year old (and, yes, when I go overseas now I tell people that I'm Canadian), what pain are you talking about? Donald Trump did say that he was going to reinvigorate our economy and get the long term GDP growth rate above 4%, didn't he? Good for me and my stocks, so what pain? Or are you saying that he's going to break that promise?


 +   2 people like this
Posted by Red Claret, a resident of Bordeaux Estates,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 11:36 am

Speaking of free speech

Steph Curry did a pretty good job shutting down the CEO of Under Armour when he dared say something positive about the Trump presidency

Steph's underpants were really in a knot over that one

Is Steph aware his hero Kap used to wear the socks that depicted pigs with police hats on?


 +   1 person likes this
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 11:41 am

@Taxpayer

Don't look at me. If professional sports depended on ticket sales or tv ad revenue from people like me who are lukewarm about watching sports, then all of those athletes would have to get second jobs at the supermarket or local gas station to pay their bills rather than driving around in Porsches and Ferraris and living in giant mansions. It's you sports suckers who have financed their ultra-luxurious lifestyles, not guys like me.


 +  Like this comment
Posted by Red Claret, a resident of Bordeaux Estates,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 11:43 am


Cholo, as I understand it, 98% of veterans are US citizens

While the 2% represents a lot of people, and we are certainly indebted to their service, let's not carried away with the gobbledygook.


 +  Like this comment
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 11:50 am

@Red Claret :"While the 2% represents a lot of people, and we are certainly indebted to their service, let's not carried away with the gobbledygook."

Kind of a lukewarm thanks to people many of whom went through considerable hardship and put their lives on the line for this country, isn't it?:

"Hey, we're 'certainly indebted' to you! Now get the heck out of our country!"


 +   1 person likes this
Posted by Red Claret, a resident of Bordeaux Estates,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 11:52 am


Haha nice try Sam

When did I say get the heck out of the country?

hearing voices again Sam? lol


 +  Like this comment
Posted by Red Claret, a resident of Bordeaux Estates,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 11:55 am


Even before Trump got involved in this

Marshwan Lynch sat there eating a banana during the anthem before a preseason game in August

Nice high-minded trolling there Marshawn...pure class


 +   2 people like this
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 12:04 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

Heh! The editor of the magazine of Sam's latest linking just offered his rebuttal to Sams cherry-picked article: Web Link

Poor Sammy.


 +  Like this comment
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 12:05 pm

@Red Claret

Don't play stupid with me. I already get enough of that from DKHSK and I know that you're smarter than that (although if you continue to work at it there's a chance you could convince me otherwise).


 +  Like this comment
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 12:12 pm

@DKHSK

Thanks for the link to the essay, Dan. I'm always willing to listen to or read well thought out arguments and - even if you don't believe it - I even occasionally change my mind on a subject. The essay does look very short, though ( only 4 paragraphs?), which isn't a good sign that the author has fully examined all sides. I'll read and consider it, though.


 +   3 people like this
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 12:29 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

Always with the qualifier, eh Sam?

Youtube to long...National Review editorial too short.

Maybe one day the opinion with be juuuuuust riiiiight for you, huh?

I so enjoy our exchanges here.


 +   1 person likes this
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 12:32 pm

@DKSHK

Thanks for reminding me that you can never rise above the level of simple, immature troll, Dan.


 +   4 people like this
Posted by Billie, a resident of Mohr Park,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 1:18 pm

Billie is a registered user.

Up until this last weekend the peaceful protest on sports fields have been made by black players to bring attention to the *fact* that those of color in these United States, should not expect, even in death, to be treated equally and fairly under our Constitution. Players didn't burn the flag, turn their back, or raise their fist. Most knelt, some with their hand over their heart and heads bowed, during the Anthem. It would seem that only in the church of football is this considered a sign of disrespect.

As was seen last weekend, the protest of a lone player has morphed into a much bigger protest in support of those who chose to use their position and visibility in a peaceful way to spotlight a national problem. Although Donald Trump likes to say these protests are ALL about denigrating our military, flag, and country, he knows full well they are about race relations in a time where, once again, those at a KKK rally are called "fine people" by the President of the United States. He made it obvious when he referred to the players as "those people" who don't appreciate the "privilege" of being allowed to make money in sports. I guess he thinks the players are getting upppity.

Where was Donald Trump's respect for our "Courageous Patriots [who] have fought and died for our great American Flag" when he was denegrating John McCain and thereby all our military who fought and were captured during war?

Where was Donald Trump's respect for our flag and country as he deferred his military service five times and doesn't have even one family member who has served in our military?

Where was Donald Trump's respect for the issue on which the players are shining a spotlight when he directed his DOJ to actively limit or eliminate police reform agreements already in place?

Are the owners hypocritical? Absolutely. But I'm glad to see they're "standing" with their players on this one, especially given the false narrative our President continues to promote. Maybe, instead of following the lead of 7 and 10-year olds to turn the TV off so they won't see Americans taking a peaceful "stand" on a national issue, parents should explain what's really behind it.

Maybe it's time for all of us to take a knee. Go RAIDERS!


 +  Like this comment
Posted by Red Claret, a resident of Bordeaux Estates,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 1:32 pm


Sam, you're one hysterical dude..

Johnny one-note always brings it back to everyone who disagrees with him is a racist

America 2017

Btw Sam - you know nothing about me, my ethnicity, my wife's ethnicity, the ethnicity of my friends, the ethnicity of my in-laws

Liberal bigotry can be so very ugly


 +   2 people like this
Posted by Red Claret, a resident of Bordeaux Estates,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 1:41 pm

Billie

You seem to know a lot about this issue

It would be an interesting experiment to poll the military, and ask them if they agree or disagree with standing for the anthem?


 +   1 person likes this
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 2:02 pm

@Red Claret: "Johnny one-note always brings it back to everyone who disagrees with him is a racist"

Huh? OK, Red, now you're getting outright weird and incoherent. It's like you're responding to some voices in your head rather than to me.


 +   4 people like this
Posted by Billie, a resident of Mohr Park,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 2:03 pm

Billie is a registered user.

Red Claret,
Well, let me see. I am American, born in Nebraska, whose great-great grandmother was a slave in Missouri. In 1927, my mother was racially classified as "colored" on her birth certificate. I enlisted in the Navy during Viet Nam. My brother, and ex-husband were in the Marines during the same war. My father was in the Army in both WWI (enlisted underage) and WWII. My birth certificate says I'm "white". I look "white" so I would have fooled the JP when I got married in South Carolina in 1968, even if the Supreme Court hadn't decided anti-miscegenation laws were unconstitutional just one year prior.

That said, my answer to your poll is that when I joined the Navy I swore to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic". Then, as now, I see *nothing* in the peaceful protests that would be an exception to the constitution. I can't ask my father as he has passed, and my brother just died from complications suffered from when he was hit with Agent Orange in Viet Nam. He, however, was just as passionate as I am on this issue.


 +  Like this comment
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 2:07 pm

@Red Claret

Oh, and congratulations, Red. You now rank even higher on the "weird and incoherent" index than our good buddy DKHSK does. You should say "Hi" to him sometime and share notes. I think he's out in the backyard chasing around squirrels or having an argument with his tomato plant.


 +   2 people like this
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 2:09 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

"Thanks for reminding me that you can never rise above the level of simple, immature troll, Dan."

Nope...its metaphorical war Sam. Your side declared it on us conservatives long ago, and now you reap the whirlwind.

No civil discourse for those who never engaged in it in the first place.

Dan


 +   1 person likes this
Posted by Red Claret, a resident of Bordeaux Estates,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 2:11 pm


Billie, with respect, and for crying out loud, I don't remember arguing this as a constitutional issue

Btw, as expected there were numerous veteran's groups that came out vociferously against the kneeling hysteria


 +  Like this comment
Posted by Red Claret, a resident of Bordeaux Estates,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 2:14 pm

Haha Sam .. I will actually give you a few points on that one

I think I'm out now to chase some squirrels as well

Fresh air - you may want to try it sometime Sam, it's great for the ol' bean


 +   4 people like this
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 2:19 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

Billie,

"the *fact* that those of color in these United States should not expect, even in death, to be treated equally and fairly under our Constitution."

Oh???

Since YOU brought it up, how are "those of color" CURRENTLY not treated equally and fairly under the constitution?

We all know about the past. We also know that it was GOVERNMENT that mandated separate but equal. Oh, and it was DEMOCRAT-controlled GOVERNMENT at that!

Slavery; Jim crow; welfare state...all of these led by DEMOCRATS.
Now look at the current state of the black american community in our cities and tell me that is the result of racism from conservatives...go ahead...show me statistics!

What a bunch of bull (expletive!)

Give us current examples, because from what I've read, all this kneeling is supposedly due to CURRENT police brutality and CURRENT systemic racism.

I eagerly await your statistical response.


 +   1 person likes this
Posted by Cholo, a resident of Livermore,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 2:24 pm

Red C...What does it mean that 98% if vets are American?

Please explain how that breaks down with regard to race/ethnicity of military personnel?

Also, do you have any idea of how many vets who serve in the US military are caucasoids from Plutonia? hmmmmmmmmmm...?











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 +  Like this comment
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 2:29 pm

@Red Claret: "Fresh air - you may want to try it sometime Sam, it's great for the ol' bean"

Thanks for the health tip, Red. Sounds like a good idea although I have to say that I'm a bit disappointed that you didn't offer me the usual free psychiatric counseling advice that conservatives usually give me after I've blasted their arguments to smithereens. Oh, well. At least there's still Obamacare.


 +  Like this comment
Posted by Marie McDonald, a resident of Birdland,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 2:47 pm

Would someone clarify if their understanding of the symbol of the flag is just for military personnel only? Just genuinely curious if it means non-service members are not excluded in the symbolism?

Appreciate it.


 +   5 people like this
Posted by Daniel Lee, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 3:25 pm

DKHSK- Please thouroughly look into the 13th Ammendment loophole and try to read without already forming an opinion, if you can. You seem to love facts. You had requested statistics but if they are presented to you, you'll just scoff. Do the work yourself about lives you wish to be justified. Perhaps justify your existence for that matter, to determine if there are statistics that prove you are a contributing member of society and your value to your community, qualitative and quantitative data are acceptable measurements of efficacy. I eagerly await your statistical response.

We are all caught up in the racial divide, yet we don't punish the people that actually make our lives miserable. Both Republicans and Democrats were part of the financial crisis. Some of you lost retirement, some investments, others stable jobs, and homes. Yet you bicker about tribal issues that will never be solved. There are no greater races of people. Ultimately this whole argument about free speech and disrespect is futile. This country was set up based on economics. The players are property, is what Mr. Hunt means, and when you are property you have no rights. Thank you for clarifying the obvious. Don't get caught up in the minutiae it will all be over before you know it.
- Dan


 +   5 people like this
Posted by Cholo, a resident of Livermore,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 3:42 pm

I'm sad but I must admit that "DKHSX" doesn't know you mean by hard numbers...duh

He's able to provide a % but he has no clue, tee hee, what is meant by hard numbers.

tee hee hee...all the way home...

I apologize for spilling the beans re: how dum-dum plenty your are DKHSX...BUSTED!


 +   3 people like this
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 3:49 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

Daniel Lee,

I request stats from those who claim that police brutality and systematic racism exist in the US, which has been claimed by all those NFL lackeys who take a knee during the anthem.

Then comes along Trump, who actually challenges those fools (and any others who sympathize) and the whole left goes nuts.

My point, dear Daniel, is that we on the right don't have to prove police brutality or systematic racism. It is the left that is making the accusation and this, theirs to provide the stats.

Now to be sure, you yourself COULD look up FBI stats for 2016 to see for for yourself where the real problems fall, but no, you'll ask me to look at a loop hole in the 13th amendment. So fair enough, I'll look up the loop hole and you look up the stats and tells is where systemic racism in the US is and we'll meet in the middle, okay?

Otherwise, your just blowing in the wind.


 +   4 people like this
Posted by Billie, a resident of Mohr Park,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 3:55 pm

Billie is a registered user.

Red Claret,
This thread started out as a discussion about free speech, a constitutional issue.

DKHSK
Geez, nice try, but I know you know the old southern Democrats pushing segregation, etc, moved into the more "conservative" Republican Party with integration and the Civil Rights Act of 1964 mandating change.

"how are "those of color" CURRENTLY not treated equally and fairly under the constitution?"
I think the 8th Amendment pretty much sums it up for me: "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted." I believe death is a pretty cruel and unusual punishment inflicted by some police forces in the exercise of their duty. Sandra Bland, Tamir Rice, Philando Castille, Keith Lamont Scott, Sam DuBose . . .

Donald Trump's answer to this problem? As I said, directing his DOJ to actively limit or eliminate police reform agreements already in place where police organizations have recognized a need to address problems of racial profiling, discrimination and use of excessive force. The DOJ had 14 such agreements with local police departments, including Ferguson, Missouri.

The racial divide in this country won't go away if it's not addressed. When local police departments recognize and address the issues within their scope, they are working long term to effect change. President Trump, with his false narrative trying to mask the true nature of the NFL protests, along with his clear non-support of police reform agreements, has done nothing to make a positive change and everything to stir up animus and make it worse.

I've said what I wanted to say on this subject. Have a great weekend all!


 +   2 people like this
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 4:58 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

Daniel Lee,

Ok, I did my homework on the 13th amendment "loophole".

It isn't a "loophole" for slavery. It's clear that it references servitude in penal sentences.

In other words, chain gangs in prison.

Now it's your turn.


 +   3 people like this
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:11 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

Billie,

Although the deaths of those you named are tragic, they are not due to systemic racism or, as far as I'm aware, individual racism.

And re/bail. If you have any statistics on systemic racism with regards to bail being applied unequally throughout society let's see them? Furthermore, let's say you are correct and the courts are applying the laws unfairly, surely the cities where this allegedly happening (most are DEMOCRAT LEAD AND RUN), would seek to right this wrong, wouldn't they? Last I heard, it isn't the police who suggest bail, it is the city lawyers and judges elected by the citizens of the DEMOCRAT run cities.

I made my point.

I hope you enjoy you time away.


 +   1 person likes this
Posted by Daniel Lee, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:32 pm

DKHSK -'Since YOU brought it up, how are "those of color" CURRENTLY not treated equally and fairly under the constitution?' - Please read the 4th through the 8th Amendments once you look up the 13th Amendment Loophole. This is in the United States Constitution.

As per your statistical requests, the FBI Data Base has over 16,000 reporting agencies and have distinguished crime in varying degrees from violent crime or property crime, and by state. Its a pretty vague request.


 +   3 people like this
Posted by Daniel Lee, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:58 pm

DKHSK- Yes, exactly that! slavery=servitude. What was I to find in the crime stats? A correlation perhaps?

Additionally, the irony is that you want proof for things, you already don't believe in, because you haven't experienced them, all your reasoning are full of fallacies, and hypothesis, you must have a lot of internal conversation. You ask for statistics but ignore the glaring evidence you just wrote in response. The terms in which you speak of right wing/left wing blah blah is so antiquated and fits right into the media/advertising customer base you have been trapped into. Follow the money trail...


 +   3 people like this
Posted by Jake Waters, a resident of Birdland,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 6:19 pm

Jake Waters is a registered user.

#DKHSK and #Red Claret

I am with you guys and support your comments. #Red Claret: I love the 'Johnny one-note comment description. So appropriate.

#Sam

Geez dude, tone the rhetoric down and try to refrain from calling others trolls and such. If you review many of your comments from other editorials, I would believe that you are the troll. We get that you and the others don't like Trump, and yest Trump would have been better off not expressing his feelings in the manner that he did, but his sentiment we agree with. As far as the reason behind these players expressing themselves leaves us all confused: they have not expressed any points to discuss except 'oppression,' 'inequality,' or 'police brutality.' What does that mean? What is their argument. The left, libs, and Democrats scream incessantly words like 'racist,' 'white supremacists,' and 'Nazi.' They have been used for everything imaginable, and as an outcome, have lost their true meaning. I would love to discuss the issues, but until they are identified, I guess we will just have to wait until they stop acting like 3rd graders.


 +   3 people like this
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Sep 29, 2017 at 7:58 pm

@Jake Waters :"they have not expressed any points to discuss except 'oppression,' 'inequality,' or 'police brutality.' What does that mean?"

What do "inequality" and "police brutality" mean??? Is that some kind of attempt at a sick joke? You want to try rephrasing your post or do you want to stick with that? I'm going to try to assume the best and just say that in the future you need to spend a lot more time in properly thinking about and editing your posts before you hit the "submit" button.


 +   4 people like this
Posted by Jake Waters, a resident of Birdland,
on Sep 30, 2017 at 9:23 am

Jake Waters is a registered user.

#Sam

This will be my last post on this subject, because I find you threatening, harassing, and a bully. You make accusations that deter from the debate, and as I said before, I find you to be the troll you claim others are that disagree with you. I like to ask questions and have people defend or explain their position, unlike you, who merely want to spew anger and resentment. If you keep this up I will make a complaint on on you through the Pleasanton Weekly.


 +   2 people like this
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Sep 30, 2017 at 9:35 am

DKHSK is a registered user.

Jake,

Like you, I find Sam personally abhorrent in thought and manners, but rather than blocking or censuring them, I like that he exposes himself.

It's gratifying to challenge them, and their response is to always attack your character. That's when you know you've won the debate. Clear headed people who read these comments know it too.

And we really know he's a troll because he refuses to register on the site.

Keep up the good fight.


 +  Like this comment
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Sep 30, 2017 at 9:37 am

DKHSK is a registered user.

Daniel Lee,

"Penal" servitude is NOT slavery.

Comprehend much?


 +   2 people like this
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Sep 30, 2017 at 10:03 am

@Jake Waters

You find me "threatening" because I am able to quickly identify and point out the many weaknesses and poorly phrased sections in your posts. Take this latest example of your seeming to be puzzled by the concepts of "inequality" and "police brutality" and the fact that there could possibly be people protesting against them. Outrageous! Or is that really what you were trying to express? If not, then it's your fault for not taking more time to more properly express your ideas, and not my fault for reading your words as you had written them.

As for civility on this site, if someone treats me with respect then I return respect. If someone treats me with disrespect, as for example DKHSK has on so many occasions, then I return the compliment. As for you, if you wish me to treat you with the highest respect and civility, then it would be wise for you to follow the Golden Rule. Oh, and starting off a post addressed to me as "Geez dude..." is a bad start.

As for Dan's point that I have not registered myself as a "registered user" on this site, that's correct. I refuse to register myself on this site because I have read unconfirmed comments on these forums that the PW was hacked years ago and the personal information of registered users was exposed. Therefore, I have no confidence in the ability of the PW to keep my information secure and refuse to register on this site. However, if you and Dan wish to accept the risks, that's your business not mine.


 +   5 people like this
Posted by Cholo, a resident of Livermore,
on Sep 30, 2017 at 10:50 am

Red C - Hard numbers like this?

Web Link=_


 +   3 people like this
Posted by BobB, a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood,
on Sep 30, 2017 at 5:16 pm

BobB is a registered user.

"We are all caught up in the racial divide, yet we don't punish the people that actually make our lives miserable. Both Republicans and Democrats were part of the financial crisis. Some of you lost retirement, some investments, others stable jobs, and homes."

Thank you so much for bringing that up. Democrats and Republicans both want you to forget about that. Bush, Obama, Hillary, and their accomplices in Congress all want you to talk about other things, be distracted. What a disgrace.


 +   6 people like this
Posted by Taxpayer, a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood,
on Sep 30, 2017 at 5:45 pm

Either a contract is a contract, or it is not. They all know NFL policy and rules. Either a player can abide or leave...pretty simple. I do hope all players get their minds clear. Families who have spent a fortune to attend, have a 'RIGHT' to get what they PAID for. Their tickets are the team contract to see the event. That includes the full field flag, bands, flyovers, the full works as advertised. When ticket sales go down salaries go down. Otherwise we can stay home and watch TV.
My son, a mechanical engineer, is a 'contract' worker...zero benefits, paid by hour. If you don't honor the agreement/contract, you have broken the contract. Bye !


 +   7 people like this
Posted by Taxpayer, a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood,
on Sep 30, 2017 at 5:45 pm

Either a contract is a contract, or it is not. They all know NFL policy and rules. Either a player can abide or leave...pretty simple. I do hope all players get their minds clear. Families who have spent a fortune to attend, have a 'RIGHT' to get what they PAID for. Their tickets are the team contract to see the event. That includes the full field flag, bands, flyovers, the full works as advertised. When ticket sales go down salaries go down. Otherwise we can stay home and watch TV.
My son, a mechanical engineer, is a 'contract' worker...zero benefits, paid by hour. If you don't honor the agreement/contract, you have broken the contract. Bye !


 +   8 people like this
Posted by American, a resident of Danville,
on Oct 1, 2017 at 8:10 am

Last night on Saturday Night Life the African-American Weekend Update host actually called President Trump a " bitch" and a " cracker". Just imagine if a white person on tv called President Obama the " N" word. The actor would be fired, the FCC would investigate, and sponsors would immediately feel the need to publically announce they were pulling their ads. But when an African-American calls our President a highly offensive racial term, nothing. Free speech has a qualifier now in America: African Americans can literally say or do anything, they have " free speech" rights, but whites do not.


 +   2 people like this
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Oct 1, 2017 at 8:44 am

@American

Your equating the "N-word" against the word "cracker" doesn't work. The "N-word" is an exceptionally viscious word that is dripping with hate when hissed out against a black person. There are a number of mildly disrespectful words other than "cracker" that can be used against whites and other such mildly disrespectful words that can be used against blacks. (I will not repeat the words here). These other words are disrespectful but they have nowhere the same impact as the "N-word". The "N-word" is unique in its vulgarity and level of hate when used by a white person against a black person. This is pretty basic stuff which any adult with any life experience should know. Do you really not get this?


 +   4 people like this
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Oct 1, 2017 at 8:56 am

@American

Oh, and your outrage against a black person (or a person of any color) calling Donald Trump a "bitch" is even funnier. Do you not know that Donald Trump recently called protesting NFL players "son of a bitch"? That's right, he publicly said that the mothers of those NFL players were dogs. Where is your outrage about one person using the "bitch" slur against another person now? Let me guess: You're going to find some way to say that it's OK when Trump uses the word (against players who are mostly black, no less), but not OK when a black on a late night comedy show uses it against Trump. Double-standards as usual, huh?


 +   3 people like this
Posted by Cholo, a resident of Livermore,
on Oct 1, 2017 at 9:31 am

Unfortunately, there are too many hate groups in the USA and the face of HATE IS ALWAYS UGLY. The hate speech is always painful.

. Web Link

I'm trying to start the New Year off on the right foot but I always seem to fall a bit short! I'm gonna munch on more than my fair share to treats today which is to say treats with chocolate!


 +   5 people like this
Posted by American, a resident of Danville,
on Oct 1, 2017 at 10:15 am

Sam: Congrats on being the final arbitrator on deciding and ranking how offensive certain racial terms are. Sam has ruled " cracker" is only " mildly offensive", so I guess a 5 on Sam scale. Apply your official scale, Sam, if a white person on tv called Obama a " mildly offensive" racial term, what would be the consequences? Same as I said, the person would be fired, an FCC investigation, and corporate sponsors publically say they are leaving. You have made my point. But good to know Sam is the official judge & jury on ranking what is offensive racial terms.


 +   2 people like this
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Oct 1, 2017 at 10:46 am

@American

Well, I guess that I was right with the last sentence in my post. You really don't get it. Amazing, and sad.


 +   1 person likes this
Posted by Daniel Lee, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Oct 1, 2017 at 11:31 am

DKHSK- How unfortunate you are not able to connect the dots. To the original point of not seeing any proof of systematic roots to these issues, perhaps look inwardly and ask yourself why your anger and hypothesis has come to be. No one can show you their perspective. Sadly you have displayed why these players should kneel for a few minutes out of an hour long advertising program. All these visceral reactions are statistical examples. Ultimately the three minutes you are so angered watching the cash machine of television entertainment will not cause you to lose your retirement or take away Medicare, or increase the cost of Assisted Living. Follow the money and look at the larger picture.


 +   6 people like this
Posted by American, a resident of Danville,
on Oct 1, 2017 at 12:00 pm

Sam: I notice that when you are losing a debate(which is actually most of them), you stop answering relevant, thought provoking questions that actually doom your argument. Hence, I was not surprised that you refused to answer my question: If a white person on tv called President Obama a racial term that was "mildly offensive"(your official rating of what Cracker is), you decide on what the word is, what would be the consequences? You did not answer the question, as if you were being honest you would have to agree, the consequences would be the white person would be fired, the FCC would investigate, and corporate sponsors would publically announce they are pulling the ads.

That is my point. There is a different standard with free speech and free expression, based on race.

You did not, and will not answer my question, and I understand why.

FYI, the Washington Post this morning actually commented that calling President Trump on tv last night a "cracker" went beyond what was even accepted by SLN usual standards. Apparently, the Washington Post did not realize that Sam is the official arbitrator on ranking and qualifying how offensive certain racial terms are, shame on them. However, despite the Washington Post admitting that "cracker" went beyond normal decency standards, there are absolutely no consequences. Was the guy fired? Nope, he is now getting even more fame as a champion of "free speech". Has the FCC called for an investigation? Nope, and not going to happen. Have corporate sponsors publically announced they are pulling ads? Nope, in fact it will help ratings, so more sponsors will join and pay more for air time.

Sam, the fact you do not understand this, or refuse to acknowledge this, is, to use your term, "sad".


 +   6 people like this
Posted by Cholo, a resident of Livermore,
on Oct 1, 2017 at 12:38 pm

Hi Plutonians...I'm sorry that there's a different standard for English spoken by some Americans...sad sad sadie...

I'll try my best to fix it.


OK by you effendi?




 +   1 person likes this
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Oct 1, 2017 at 12:39 pm

@American

I'm not playing games with you. If you don't think that the "N-word" is in a class entirely by itself when it comes to the level of hate and vulgarity it expresses, then there's really no hope of progressing any further on this discussion.


 +  Like this comment
Posted by Scott Hale, a resident of San Ramon,
on Oct 1, 2017 at 12:55 pm

Scott Hale is a registered user.

Just curious: Is it ok for people who have a 'built in' bully pulpit be allowed to use 'toilet' language when it is being broadcast/watched by millions? And please, the FCC? Really? Useless.
End of day if somebody is upset they can change the channel, not go to the 'game' and not buy anything advertised. THAT is the only way to effect change. Period.
Other than that, time for another 'feel good' blog that nobody comments on....


 +   6 people like this
Posted by American, a resident of Danville,
on Oct 1, 2017 at 1:04 pm

Sam: Still not answered my question. Game, set, match.


 +   3 people like this
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Oct 1, 2017 at 5:28 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

Daniel Lee,

Tsk, tsk, tsk...

So now systemic racism has now morphed to "the roots of systemic racism".

Way to move those goal posts.

Here's a hint for you: I never cower from someone accusing me of racism. I'm free to speak my mind and know the truth of my biases. I also know that the first one hurling that particular accusation has lost any credibility.

Now if you refuse to identify current systemic racism then you can discuss the next invectives you'll hurl at the adults from the safety of your mothers basement.

It's been fun exposing your nonsense. Thx.

Dan


 +   3 people like this
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Oct 1, 2017 at 5:37 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

Scott,

Yes. It's ok as long as the "bully" is on my side.

Like I told Sammy up thread, we allowed you screeching children to call the right, including all presidents, congressmen, christians, and just plain normal folk who vote republican all the names you wanted. We allowed the left to shut down free speech on campuses temporarily.

Now you have the unmitigated gall to cry because a president finally dishes it back so now you use the civility bs?

No more. I for one love to hear you all cry like little children.

American hit it the nail on the head with his remarks on Sam. Same goes for you, my friend.

Dan


 +   2 people like this
Posted by Billie, a resident of Mohr Park,
on Oct 1, 2017 at 10:33 pm

Billie is a registered user.

Taxpayer said: "Families who have spent a fortune to attend, have a 'RIGHT' to get what they PAID for. Their tickets are the team contract to see the event. That includes the full field flag, bands, flyovers, the full works as advertised."

I have to say I don't understand how the peaceful, silent action of players kneeling during the anthem somehow impedes anyones " 'RIGHT' " to see "the event". Fans sitting in their seats are above the field, and players, kneeling on the field, present even less line-of-sight impediment to the "full field flag" than when they stand. Their silent protest certainly doesn't hinder anyones ability to hear the "bands". Players on the field present absolutely no obstruction to a view of the sky for flyovers. The game is not delayed whether or not a player is protesting. Unless those attending the games are like Donald Trump and think the refs are ruining the game by flagging bad hits in order to please their wives, fans at the stadium are absolutely getting everything "they PAID for" . . . inflated though the price may be.

It's really a shame Donald Trump's name-calling diatribe against protesting players has twisted the protests into a false narrative of flag and country disrespect, let alone one of "getting what you paid for" at a game. Donald Trump has perfected the art of deflection. We need to perfect our ability to see beyond his specious rhetoric to the truth.


 +   2 people like this
Posted by Daniel Lee, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Oct 2, 2017 at 12:02 am

DKHSK- Again, unfortunate you read such accusations into my previous comment which was not written. If you read through all of my comments "racism" was was not a word I used against you, YOU wrote/assumed that, I don't even know you to make such claims, the beauty of typing comments is no personal context. Making accusations about someone I don't know is not helpful. I simply pointed to the fact that given your anger towards the issue- to perhaps look at where that anger is coming from, this forum seems to be support group for you a community, of course your opinion is yours that is established. Additionally, from the perspective of the protesting players one can see the anger towards their message as counter-productive. I just enjoy this conversation because you seem quite genuine; and really focused on boxing in your ideas about people and abstract concepts like symbolism and victim-mentality despite stating personal prerogative.


 +   4 people like this
Posted by Daniel Lee, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Oct 2, 2017 at 12:04 am

In any event...
To all: I have found your responses to this article enlightening. The course of social oppression within this nation
is a vast subject with very rich historical context and a psychological and even maybe epigenetic impact on generations who have experienced them. The saying, "out of sight out of mind" is very pertinent to personal experience and a barrier to empathy. In full disclosure, I do not share the heritage of the football players who are kneeling in protest, however I have personally witnessed or have been subject to some of the issues they are calling attention to. I am well aware that folks have their opinions and own experiences that are different of challenge my own, such is the beauty of being an American. Some mentioned above that they were not familiar with the terms, "oppression" or "police brutality", I believe that is a wonderful thing, I wish for ALL people to never live through that, to know that someone has never been subject to that humiliation and tragedy is positive. However, knowing that someone else claims a different experience and denying them their truth is another matter. This country is built upon economics, it was founded and colonized based on earnings potential/ profit and that continues to be the root of all these social divides. Limited to this forum my condensed summary of some reasons why the players who choose to kneel during the national anthem MAY have cause based on their experience and others in the studies that were sampled below. Like all studies with large data formulations these are not comprehensive of the entire black population in the history of the United States, these are some current examples of systems in place. These cannot include undocumented data of course that's very subjective and logistically challenging to gather, although I would really be interested in gathering unbiased data about how many times someone was followed in a store and the reason behind it, or not given a job, or denied for a promotion, or being denied a room at a hotel, or informed by an apartment manager the unit you wanted to tour upon arrival is now leased, or informed by an educator they would be useless, or being told by a clerk the store was closing mid-day and they should leave, or being told that the restaurant has no tables- clearly there were tables, or told restrooms were not available to you even if you are a customer but then lets someone else use it, or informed by the realtor of the open house that you attended that it was cancelled or the house is already pending and asked to leave, sometimes one doesn't have to be lynched to know they are not wanted, or the physician you see assumes you are drug seeking and dismissive of your health concerns (these are true experiences by the way- not hypothetical, the ones below are more general data).
Black sounding names were 50% less likely to be called back for a job interview after sending an identical resume as their white counterparts (University of Chicago, Field Study on Labor Market Discrimination, 2004)
Black home buyers are shown 17.7% percent fewer homes for sale and in selective neighborhoods by real estate agents. (Federal Department of Housing and Urban Development, "Housing Discrimination Against Racial & Ethic Minorities" 2012), From 2015- 27.4% of black applicants were denied mortgages compared with 11% of white applicants (Home Mortgage Disclosure Act of 2015), Minority neighborhoods pay higher car insurance premiums than mostly white areas with the same level of risk (Consumer Reports and Propublica 2017), When buying new cars black people are charged roughly $700 higher than white buyers (New York Times Economic Review), black drivers are twice as likely to get pulled over by police (USA Today Arrest Rate Study- FBI Arrest Records Analysis 2014- "Police Behavior During Traffic Stops" US Department of Justice), black people are incarcerated at nearly 6 times the rate of white people ( The Sentencing Project, 2007), Impact of Jury and Race Analysis Web Link, there is a 20:1 wealth gap between white and black Americans following the 2008 financial crisis (Paul Taylor- Pew Research Center 2011), Consumers pay more due to race and gender (Time Magazine, 2012), Race matters in funding a small business (Bloomberg, 2013), "Minority-Owned Firms Are More Likely To Be Denied Loans - Among firms with gross receipts
under $500,000, loan denial rates for minority firms were about three times higher, at 42
percent, compared to those of non-minority-owned firms, 16 percent. For high sales firms, the
rate of loan denial was almost twice as high for minority firms as for non-minority firms. Minority-Owned Firms Pay Higher Interest Rates on Business Loans - For all firms,
minority firms paid 7.8 percent on average for loans compared with 6.4 percent for non-minority
firms. The difference was smaller, but still existed between minority and non-minority high sales
firms. (U.S Dept. of Commerce : Disparities in Capital Access between
Minority and Non-Minority-Owned Businesses 2010), Doctors are less likely to inform black patients as often as white patients about an important heart procedure (The New England Journal of Medicine, 1999), Racism and discrimination in health care: Providers and patients (Harvard Health Publishing, 2017), Republican AND Democratic white legislators did not respond as frequently to constituents with black sounding names (Yale University Field Experiment on Legislators), historical discrimination by the USDA pushed black farmers off their land- black owned land peaked at 15 million acres from 218,000 black land owners in 1910 and by 1992 dwindled to 18,000 black farmers owning 2.3 million acres of land ( The Nation, 7-23-2010). Y'all are fun! Now back to the lab for some actual work :)


 +   2 people like this
Posted by Scott Hale, a resident of San Ramon,
on Oct 2, 2017 at 7:06 am

Scott Hale is a registered user.

>Scott,

>Yes. It's ok as long as the "bully" is on my side.

Is that 8 year old logic? And who is crying here? Certainly not me. Careful with that really huge paint brush you tend you use.

My opinion is the only people involved here are the players, the owners and the fans. Players want to take a knee, fine the owners can deal or not deal how they decide because they ARE employees. The fans can submit their opinion as well and they have the loudness opinion of all. don't go to the game, don't watch the game, don't buy advertisers products.

I just wish your valued GOP President didn't get involved with his potty 5yr old voice. He has other pressing matters to muck up.


 +  Like this comment
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Oct 2, 2017 at 7:56 am

@American :"Sam: Still not answered my question. Game, set, match."

I have no need to answer your question. You're a bit slow, so I don't think that you understand what's been happening here. I'll explain it to you: I have no need to answer your red herring questions, and my aim is not to convince you that you're wrong. We both know that you're so closed-minded that that will never happen. No, my aim here was to expose the ridiculousness of your feeble arguments to all right minded people reading these forums. Since I've clearly established that you are someone with highly warped moral values who is reasoning based on the belief that calling someone the “N-word" is no worse calling someone a “cracker" or similar, I've accomplished my task.

Game, set, match. You lose.


 +   1 person likes this
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Oct 2, 2017 at 9:24 am

DKHSK is a registered user.

Daniel Lee,

"Sadly you have displayed why these players should kneel for a few minutes out of an hour long advertising program."

So what have I displayed?

Since they are apparently kneeling in support of Colin Kapernick, I assume they are kneeling because of alleged police brutality and "systematic racism". Neither of which aren't systematic at all, but let's put that point aside. So are you calling me a racist, or not?

Furthermore, as I have made clear in my first post on this thread, if kneeling for them is truly a 1st amendment issues (it isn't), then my examples of Brendon Eich and James Damore are even more spot on.

You see Daniel, if it was not appropriate for Brendon Eich to contribute to a political campaign, or for James Damore to penn a requested letter, then it too is not appropriate for the players to be protesting alleged issues on the job.

Note how I didn't say "illegal".

In addition, other examples were given regarding the Dallas Cowboys wish to put decals on their helmets in support of the 5 police officers assassinated in Dallas, or the 9/11 cleats which the NFL flatly rejected.

So it would seem that the NFL and its owners are hypocrites and by extension, so are people like you and Sam.

You come here and try and convince us that systematic racism still exists and when asked about examples, you give anecdotes like a sentence in the 13th amendment. Then you write screeds subtly accusing me of racism.

So boring. So predictable.


 +   2 people like this
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Oct 2, 2017 at 9:37 am

DKHSK is a registered user.

Scott,

You still don't get it.

Take a look at what is happening from a political perspective in Puerto Rico and you'll see the democrat playbook in full operation.

Only this time Trump, unlike Bush and his "Katrina", is actually fighting back against the lies from the democrat left and the media and you screeching leftists are going nuts.

Good...we love your tears.





 +  Like this comment
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Oct 2, 2017 at 9:54 am

@DKHSK: "You come here and try and convince us that systematic racism still exists and when asked about examples, you give anecdotes like a sentence in the 13th amendment. "

What? DKHSK couldn't now be so off-the-wall loony as to deny the simple fact that "systematic racism still exists", could he? Bizarre and completely out of touch with reality. Excuse me, guys, while I school Dan on examples of systematic racism right here in 21st century California:

LA Times: "More racist text messages uncovered among San Francisco police officers": Web Link

LA Times: "Top L.A. County sheriff's official sent emails mocking Muslims, blacks, Latinos and women"
Web Link

---------


 +   2 people like this
Posted by Scott Hale, a resident of San Ramon,
on Oct 2, 2017 at 10:16 am

Scott Hale is a registered user.

oh Dan: it is you who doesn't get it. You are so far in your GOP bubble, nothing can reach in. NOW, I know you don't keep track: I equally am displeased with Dem and GOP. I belong to neither party. In fact, I'm firmly in the 'decline to state' party. I also don't think the 'taking the knee' is a Dem or GOP issue (at all). You, on the other hand, believe EVERYTHING is GOP this or DEM that. Any tears shed are your and you should. GOP is embarrassing. Congress, the President AND Dems; all of them.
Now back to the 'knee' issue. Is it about race? Seems to be if one looks at who is taking the knee and what they are objecting to. My thing is what do the folks 'taking a knee' want to see change and how long will they do it for? I don't watch football or attend games....so doesn't effect me beyond all the wall to wall news coverage and our slightly unable to control himself twitter addict. Myself, they made their point, people are talking now back to the game they are being paid a lot of $$.
And you, Dan, please do keep up and here is a tissue for your tears of outrage that not everybody (or anybody) totally agrees with your opinions. You are entertaining, I will say that.


 +   2 people like this
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Oct 2, 2017 at 10:53 am

DKHSK is a registered user.

Sam,

Learn what "systematic" racism means before you engage in dialog with the adults.

Thx in advance.

ps...I thought you weren't engaging in dialog anymore? Happy to have you back in the fold.


 +   2 people like this
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Oct 2, 2017 at 11:05 am

DKHSK is a registered user.

Scott,

Ok, I'll state this succinctly: What kinda of change, specifically, are they kneeling for? If you are going to say equality, then tell me where things are not systemically equal?

Individual cases of racism are a sad fact of life, as pointed out in Daniel Lees rather extensive comment. But connecting that to systemic racism is a different matter altogether.

Systemic racism must be codified by laws, and as far as I know, there is no inequality in our laws.


 +  Like this comment
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Oct 2, 2017 at 11:17 am

@DKHSK :"Learn what "systematic" racism means before you engage in dialog with the adults. "

LOL! I know what it means. That's the best that you could come up with, Dan? A transparent bluff to try to cover up the fact that you got called out? Seriously? I thought you would try to come up with something a bit more tricky. Oh, well, overestimated you yet again.

Oh, and as far as not "engaging in dialog anymore", where did I write that? I did write to American that I wasn't going to respond to his red herring bait because in my view he had already lost the argument. Was that too complex of an idea for your simple mind to grasp so that your brain recorded it as my not "engaging in dialog anymore"?


 +   26 people like this
Posted by Cholo, a resident of Livermore,
on Oct 2, 2017 at 3:54 pm

I have a hunch that the "DKH" is a girly guy...a tiny bit of peach fuzz here 'n there...tee hee...

The DKH enjoys using this blog to climb a pole and wave it around! He is mostly about size..and huffin' 'n puffin'...

He detests being topped by other fellas but that has indeed happened again, again, and again...he loves being topped!!!

The "t" does indeed have a very busy potty voice goin' on...he can't help it...it's about identity.

He loves being referred to as "dede" at the ice cream parlor...BUSTED!

dede...there's a sale on nylons goin'...don't miss out!






 +   1 person likes this
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Oct 2, 2017 at 5:12 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

Sam,

If by "called out" you are referring to Daniel Lee's post, then I'm afraid that once again, you didn't understand what he posted.

Daniel didn't post anything that was "systemic" racism.

I'm sorry that you don't understand the distinction.


 +   2 people like this
Posted by Billie, a resident of Mohr Park,
on Oct 2, 2017 at 8:00 pm

Billie is a registered user.

Systemic: System-wide; affecting or relating to a group or system (such as a body, economy, or market) as a whole, instead of its individual members or parts. Not to be confused with 'systematic' which means 'methodical.'
Business Dictionary: Web Link
---o0o---
While the DOJ recognizes that the "vast majority of men and women who police our communities do so with professionalism, respect, bravery, and integrity", they have also found some "police departments engage in unconstitutional policing" such as "patterns of unlawful use of force; unlawful stops, searches and arrests; and racial discrimination." The DOJ Civil Rights Division explains what they do: "Pattern-or-practice cases begin with investigations of allegations of systemic police misconduct and, when the allegations are substantiated, end with comprehensive agreements designed to support constitutional and effective policing and restore trust between police and communities."

According to the DOJ Civil Rights Division website, "Since 2009, the Civil Rights Division has opened 25 investigations into law enforcement agencies and is currently enforcing 19 agreements, including 14 consent decrees and one post-judgment order." They are:

Consent Decrees: Virgin Islands Police Department; Seattle Police Department; New Orleans Police Department; East Haven (Connecticut) Police Department; Puerto Rico Police Department; Portland (Oregon) Police Department; Warren (Ohio) Police Department; Albuquerque (New Mexico) Police Department; Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department-Antelope Valley; Cleveland Division of Police; Meridian (Mississippi) Police Department; Maricopa County (Arizona) Sheriff's Office; Ferguson (Missouri) Police Department; Newark (New Jersey) Police Department;

Out-of-Court Agreements: Suffolk County (New York) Police Department; Miami Police Department; Alamance County (North Carolina) Sheriff's Office; Yonkers (New York) Police Department;

Post-Judgment Order: Melendres v. Arpaio (Maricopa County, Arizona) (United States as Intervenor).
The Civil Rights Division's Pattern and Practice Police Reform Work 1994 - present: Web Link
DOJ Civil Rights Division, Police Reform and Accountability Accomplishments: Web Link

Donald Trump's answer to the systemic, unconstitutional problems of racial profiling, discrimination and use of excessive force that have been identified or are in the pipeline? Although he admitted he hadn't read the reports, Sessions has directed the DOJ to actively limit or eliminate police reform agreements already in place with local police departments and "pull back" on those in the pipeline.

Systemic. Unconstitutional. Discrimination. Racism. I'll say again, maybe it's time for all of us to take a knee, or at least recognize that those who do have a good reason.


 +  Like this comment
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Oct 2, 2017 at 10:32 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

Billie,

Did you actually read what you linked?

All you did was link diparate incidents of a grand total of 39 jurisdictions out of a total of literally TENS OF THOUSANDS of jurisdictions since 1994.

Statistically you haven't even come close to proving one damned thing with regards to systemic racism. In fact, did you notice that your links also include the disabled as well?






 +   1 person likes this
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Oct 2, 2017 at 11:26 pm

@Billie

You're wasting your time with Dan (DKHSK). You see what he just did, right? He moved the goal posts. First, he asked you to prove that “systematic racism still exists". Then when you did that, instead of being honest and acknowledging that he was wrong and that systemic racism does indeed exist, he then turns up his nose at your proof and says that you haven't “statistically" proved your claim. LOL! The guy is a clown! There is no need to take anything that he say seriously, and no need to believe that he is arguing in good faith because he's not. Just consider him to be a mildly amusing court jester like I do.


 +   2 people like this
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Oct 3, 2017 at 5:02 am

DKHSK is a registered user.

Sam/Billie,

Ok.

That thhere are anti-discriminator laws in place, and the fact that there is a list of juristictions that have been found to discriminate for any and all reasons inclusive of racism (only one going to judgment out of tens of thousands), proves my point.

You can claim racism is systematic and abundant all you want, but according to Billie and Daniels data, it just isn't on both counts.

It's not my fault that you two don't get it.






 +   2 people like this
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Oct 3, 2017 at 5:58 am

DKHSK is a registered user.

Just for clarity:

There is ONE criminal court judgement against a police department in Arizona out of a total of 18500 police departments in the US. since 1994.

Of the remaining 18499 police departments, there are "consent decrees" (14), "out-of-court agreements" (4), "litigation" (1), "findings reports", and "ongoing investigations" (6).

So out of a grand total of 18500 police departments, 19 have had some form of discriminatory practices according to the DoJ.

So as a percentage, the amount of police departments having some form of problem, according to Billies numbers is ONE-TENTH of ONE PERCENT or .001.

So there you have it: Billie and Sam would have you believe that systemic racism is a massive problem based on ONE-TENTH of ONE PERCENT of police departments in the US.

You just cannot make this stuff up!

Yep Sam, I'm "moving the goal posts!

/s


 +  Like this comment
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Oct 3, 2017 at 8:00 am

@DKHSK:"So out of a grand total of 18500 police departments, 19 have had some form of discriminatory practices according to the DoJ. ....So there you have it: Billie and Sam would have you believe that systemic racism is a massive problem based on ONE-TENTH of ONE PERCENT of police departments in the US."

OK, everyone, I want you all to see what DKHSK is doing here. (Oh, and sorry, Dan, but for the moment I'm through with directly addressing my argument to you because, as I've said, you're not arguing in good faith.)

As Billie wrote, the DOJ is currently enforcing 19 agreements against police departments across the country because of practices of misconduct including racial discrimination and racial profiling. Now of course we all know that the DOJ doesn't have the manpower or money to do out and individually investigate each and every one of those 18500 police departments in the US and that the fact that 19 police departments are operating under controlled agreement by no means implies that the other 18481 police departments are all free and clear of any serious problems, but that's what DKHSK is trying to argue. Yeah, that is pretty silly, isn't it? Now is DKHSK really that stupid that he can't see the big, obvious hole in his own argument, or is it simply that he's betting that you all are so stupid that you won't see the big, obvious hole in his own argument? Either way, trying to argue and reason with him is a complete waste of time.


 +  Like this comment
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Oct 3, 2017 at 8:10 am

The bottom line is that, yes, even in the year 2017 systemic racism does still exist in this country. Does it exist on a grand scale sweeping over the majority of the police departments of this country? No. But it does exist to the extent that it undermines overall public trust in the fairness of all police officers. Even the nearby San Francisco police department has had to do some housecleaning due to officers within it exchanging racist emails and text messages.


 +   2 people like this
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Oct 3, 2017 at 8:27 am

DKHSK is a registered user.

Sam,

LOL!

"Now of course we all know that the DOJ doesn't have the manpower or money to do out and individually investigate each and every one of those 18500 police departments in the US and that the fact that 19 police departments are operating under controlled agreement by no means implies that the other 18481 police departments are all free and clear of any serious problems,"

That point which Sam uses a strawman argument to prove a data point that DOES NOT EXIST.

Your beclowning yourself so often that I actually feel sorry for you is a real accomplishment.

Please step away from your keyboard lest you make yourself look even more ridiculous.

Dan


 +   2 people like this
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Oct 3, 2017 at 8:29 am

DKHSK is a registered user.

Hey Sam, here's a clue about those reports and "racism". Do a keyword search and tell us all how many times in either report Billie linked that the word "racism" comes up.

Here's a hint: ZERO.

Go ahead, check it out.

You have been served.

Goodbye Sammy!


 +  Like this comment
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Oct 3, 2017 at 8:34 am

Uh, oh. Old “punch-drunk" Dan is back for yet another pummeling. The guy just never gives up, does he?


 +  Like this comment
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Oct 3, 2017 at 8:38 am

@DKHSK :"Hey Sam, here's a clue about those reports and "racism". Do a keyword search and tell us all how many times in either report Billie linked that the word "racism" comes up."

Gee, Dan, did it occur to you to try looking up the word “racial" instead?


 +   3 people like this
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Oct 3, 2017 at 9:07 am

DKHSK is a registered user.

Sam,

Definitions:

Racism: The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
n. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Racial: Of, relating to, or characteristic of race or races.
adj. Arising from or based on differences among human racial groups: racial conflict; racial discrimination.

And racism does not only apply to one race my dense friend.

Yawn.


 +   2 people like this
Posted by Sam, a resident of Oak Hill,
on Oct 3, 2017 at 9:56 am

@DKHSK

Uh, oh. Dan got out his dictionary. Dan, here's another word you might want to look up and reflect on: "Obtuse".


 +   4 people like this
Posted by Billie, a resident of Mohr Park,
on Oct 3, 2017 at 10:30 am

Billie is a registered user.

One last post, because Sam, you're right.

DKHSK defines racism as: "Discrimination or prejudice based on race", so:

""Racial Profiling" refers to the discriminatory practice by law enforcement officials of targeting individuals for suspicion of crime based on the individual's race, ethnicity, religion or national origin. . . Criminal profiling, generally, as practiced by police, is the reliance on a group of characteristics they believe to be associated with crime. Examples of racial profiling are the use of race to determine which drivers to stop for minor traffic violations (commonly referred to as "driving while black or brown"), or the use of race to determine which pedestrians to search for illegal contraband."
ACLU: Web Link

Less personnel in the DOJ Civil Rights Division should help the Administration in their efforts to "pull back" on initiation and oversight of those pesky police reform agreements.

"President Trump's proposed budget assumes a major reduction of staff in the civil-rights division, the section of the Justice Department charged with enforcing laws against discrimination and protecting the right to vote." and "Funding for the division remains virtually flat, with an increase of only $168,000 to its $148 million dollar budget. The proposal projects the civil-rights division would see a loss of more than 121 staff positions, including 14 attorney positions."
Jeff Sessions's Agenda for the Civil-Rights Division: Web Link


 +   1 person likes this
Posted by DKHSK, a resident of Bridle Creek,
on Oct 3, 2017 at 4:51 pm

DKHSK is a registered user.

Ummm...Billie, the definition came from Websters.

Sorry to ruin your parade and the links you sent.


Sorry, but further commenting on this topic has been closed.

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