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April 26th, 2008 is the next Beach Impeach!

Original post made by Janna on Apr 19, 2008

I participated in the last event and it was a great opportunity to meet like-minded people and make a huge statement. Check out the link for more info.

Web Link

Comments (68)

Posted by Laura, a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Apr 19, 2008 at 6:09 pm

How sad...you should all be ashamed of yourselves!


Posted by AL, a resident of Highland Oaks
on Apr 19, 2008 at 9:00 pm

I agree with Laura...
You would think these people would have better things to do with their time.
I guess we should just do this for every president. I am sure if Obama wins, this group will do the same thing- NOT!


Posted by Jerry, a resident of Oak Hill
on Apr 20, 2008 at 1:51 am

Wonder who put the "Peace" quote from JFK on the "Register Here" page of the Beach Impeach web site. Isn't this the same JFK that left "Freedom Fighters" stranded on the beach in Cuba and sent the first Green Beret "Military Advisers" to South Vietnam.


Posted by Paula, a resident of Foothill High School
on Apr 20, 2008 at 6:40 am

Janna...glad that you can gather with other "like-minded people" and make a huge statement that sends a message to others throughout the US that the San Francisco Bay area are a bunch of liberal idiots! Why don't you suggest to your comrades that you use your time to do something truly significant to help our country: prepare and serve some nourishing food to needy people, assemble care packages to send to the troops who are protecting your right to freedom of speech and assembly or maybe clean up a beach or hillside. I for one am truly sick of this type of hate speak against the Bush administration, where were all of you when Bill Clinton lied under oath? I'm sure none of you were gathering to support his impeachment, sadly enough, I'd be willing to bet that a lot of you are supporting Hillary for President, go figure!


Posted by libertypirate, a resident of another community
on Apr 20, 2008 at 11:05 am

Why does my freedom offend you? It is one thing to disagree with others and their actions, it is quite another to associate oneself with a particular point of view that ignores and denigrates others. My country has only ever risen to greatness by including people and their ideas.

It must be either intellectual dishonesty or rationalized fear of being wrong that drives individuals to judge a stranger's patriotism. What ever the cause, the effect is quite well known that some individuals proxy such pressures causing self censorship in others. What use is the freedom of speech when your ashamed to use it?

The flood of real moral outrage just as it has in times past continues to waken the fear driven into accepting reality. Our once unique and progressive nation is now driven by pretending that we can't, shouldn't, wouldn't want to think about something. Where is the virtue/value in ignoring our failure in order to pretend that we will win something inevitably? It is the morally bankrupt who refuse to value the total effect of their existence and so they project shame unto others so they won't have to.




Posted by Susan, a resident of Amador Estates
on Apr 20, 2008 at 11:19 am

Say what? Sounds like the libertypirate needs to go back to bed and sleep off the hangover or drug induced stupor! I can only hope this person is not a teacher at one of my children's schools, sounds like some of the psycho babble they've already been exposed to.


Posted by libertypirate, a resident of another community
on Apr 20, 2008 at 1:07 pm

So Susan we shouldn't call people out who abuse human instinct in order to validate their own irrationally accepted perception of the world?

BTW that is what you did by diving to directly to the bottom of the barrel to call me out. Elitism 101: pretend to apply what you don't like about others to those who speak ill of your conventional positions. Unless your just poking fun at people who don't think as you do; then your just crass.

It is funny how much the warmongers dislike such negative associations....





Posted by Stacey, a resident of Amberwood/Wood Meadows
on Apr 20, 2008 at 1:13 pm

Ad hominem arguments are a typical tactic used by numerous posters on this forum. They can't attack the message so they attack the messenger.


Posted by Susan, a resident of Amador Estates
on Apr 20, 2008 at 6:19 pm

Chug, chug...drink that Koolaid.


Posted by libertypirate, a resident of another community
on Apr 21, 2008 at 7:48 am

Susan,

So it is crass, while people die you get have a little fun at their or perhaps as I am sure you want to BELIEVE it to be, my expense.

As for that koolaid, you shouldn't project your own issues unto others; we all know the FOX brought the koolaid. People such as yourself think fear is a perfectly logical reason to destroy ones own country. Undermine everything that country stands for and still believe their little pathetic world is just peachy because their credit keeps delivering their koolaid.

Claiming I have blinders on isn't an argument. It's a distraction.


Posted by Cindy, a resident of Dublin
on Apr 21, 2008 at 2:08 pm

Susan-Don't you just love how all of the liberals tout their right to free speech and then bash you when you exercise the same right? As if they're so superior and then go on to double talk making their arguments meaningless. I agree with you and also hope this person isn't teaching our children. A couple of years ago on the anniversary of 9/11 one of the administrators at Dublin High had the audacity to wear a "code pink" shirt, my kids came home furious, what a slap in the face to the families of those who died on that horrible day. Of course she has the right to wear that shirt whenever she wants, thanks to those who are defending our country!


Posted by AL, a resident of Highland Oaks
on Apr 21, 2008 at 2:20 pm

I don't care if all of you want to waste your time shaping braless bodies into the shape of IMPEACH. Have fun...I just think it's interesting how people think that just because they don't like a president, they should be impeached. I didn't like Bill Clinton, but the will of the people elected him, and I used my VOTE to try and get him out of office. If Hillary or Barack Hussein gets elected I will also recognize that as the electorial process at work. You will not find me laying on some beach trying to get out a president elected through the democratic process. They only do things like that in Communist countries.


Posted by libertypirate, a resident of another community
on Apr 21, 2008 at 3:38 pm

And back to attacking the messenger/liberals/other points of view... Or should I say continuance..

You can pretend anything is fair and balanced even when you know better.

Meaningless: Hasn't that really become the parroting an argument intended to incite anger and frustration in others? All because you have no argument, no facts, and live from that FAUX built reality.

You're not mad, you should be ashamed of yourself, and so should others trying to own patriotism by wrapping themselves in symbolism. Our flag, our soldiers, our country go pound salt if it my part of OUR hurts your feelings.

I think conservatives are confused about the difference between patriotism and nationalism.


Posted by Stacey, a resident of Amberwood/Wood Meadows
on Apr 21, 2008 at 4:36 pm

Impeachment is a Constitutional process meant for a president who commits certain crimes while in office, thereby violating the trust and authority given to him by the electorate. Do a Google search and you can read all about the reasons to impeach Bush. I mean, unauthorized spying upon the American people is quite the crime and nothing to do with like or dislike of a president.


Posted by Jerry, a resident of Oak Hill
on Apr 22, 2008 at 2:42 am

By "unauthorized spying", I'm assuming we're talking phone taps on those suspected of aiding terrorist who wish to kill U.S. citizens here and abroad. If this is "quite the crime" surely Nancy P. would have put a stop to it by now. After all, she's Speaker Of The House and could initiate the first step of an impeachment process. If not Nancy, then surely Harry Reed would step forward.

If tapping a phone, using the procedures as described by President Bush, will save the life of one U. S. citizen, I say "have at it". It's foolish to think our intelligence agencies are tapping every citizen's phone. This isn't some childs game we're playing - these are fanatics that will kill each and every one of us with no hesitation what so ever. Believe it or not, this is a war we're fighting, not "just a few terrorist" as some would have us believe, and it started long before George W. Bush became President. Remember Bill Clinton blowing up the asprin factory, killing the night watchman. Now that really showed them we mean business!!!

Didn't we have "unauthorized spying" during WW2. Letters were opened to examine the content. Military personnel in war zones had letters reviewed by a Censor before they were mailed home. If I remember correctly there just may have been phone taps during that war. Don't remember hearing much about many people complaining back then. As today, we were fighting a war, just on a larger scale.


Posted by Stacey, a resident of Amberwood/Wood Meadows
on Apr 22, 2008 at 7:25 am

It wasn't about tapping phones, but tapping phones illegally, without a warrant, without due process of law, and in direct violation of the law. Web Link Nixon was also accused of illegal wiretapping, among other crimes. At least he had the decency to resign.

By the way, yes, a large percentage of communications can be tapped at once. And computer software is capable of sorting it all. And no, it isn't some child's game. There _always_ are, have been, and will be enemies out there who want to kill us. How does that make it ok to violate our own laws and suspend our liberties indefinitely? Orwell's book 1984 deals with a population kept in a perpetual state of fear so that they allow themselves to be controlled and oppressed. A war without end against "terrorists" accomplishes this!


Posted by Bob, a resident of Castlewood
on Apr 22, 2008 at 7:44 am

Stacey, can you point to some specific cases where ordinary folks have been unduly harmed by "illegal" wiretaps? If Bush is to be impeached, surely there must be numerous court rulings against him and the government.


Posted by Stacey, a resident of Amberwood/Wood Meadows
on Apr 22, 2008 at 7:53 am

Read the link I pasted in my previous post. It lists court cases. Also, let me clarify, I haven't yet taken a position in this thread regarding impeaching Bush or posing nude on a beach (and before I get jumped on I wasn't a big Clinton fan either). I think at this point it is a waste of time.


Posted by Bob, a resident of Castlewood
on Apr 22, 2008 at 8:19 am

Stacey, I'm open-minded on this as well. But for all the impeachment talk, I expected to see many (or even one?) case successfully litigated against Bush/the government. I didn't see any in your link or elsewhere. I feel like I'm missing something.


Posted by Stacey, a resident of Amberwood/Wood Meadows
on Apr 22, 2008 at 8:28 am

Oh? I thought the article mentioned the AT&T and Islamic charity cases. I'm not sure what the outcomes were or if there have been outcomes yet. The courts did order the administration to obtain authorization for the wiretapping. It was all over the news "back then". I think Congress also has taken some action in this regard.

Incidentally, I read recently that Alberto Gonzales is having trouble getting a new job.


Posted by Stacey, a resident of Amberwood/Wood Meadows
on Apr 22, 2008 at 8:30 am

"In Searching for New Job, Gonzales Sees No Takers"
Web Link


Posted by Bob, a resident of Castlewood
on Apr 22, 2008 at 9:16 am

Stacey, I saw those cases, but I believe they are yet to be resolved (I'm no lawyer, though, so maybe I'm missing something). Again, I'm leary of the government "listening in" on regular citizens. And if Bush or the administration has done anything illegal, then impeachment should be considered. But all I see are plenty of allegations and unresolved arguments on both sides. If we are going to start impeachment proceedings based on "possible" wrongdoing, then it seems to me we have greater issues to address...


Posted by Punch, a resident of another community
on Apr 22, 2008 at 9:29 am

How ironic is the NY Times reporting on the Gonzales job search. He may have plenty of competition from former Times employees:

Web Link

Web Link


Posted by libertypirate, a resident of another community
on Apr 22, 2008 at 11:11 am

I really wish we could point to individual harm caused by illegally wiretapping everyone. However I believe the harm is they were not looking for one terrorist, I believe they were looking for anyone they can define as such.

This administration has done wonderful job excluding their president from even the appearance of oversight. They have gone so far as to create new definitions of their enemies which includes anyone against their centralized neo-con government, their definition does not exclude American citizens.

Justification so the American people could perceive the possibility of a legitimate purpose behind the administration's policies. They haven't once had to prove their actions. They didn't even have to present evidence, they showed diagrams of chemical trailers to the UN. Why not a picture of such a well known facility, oh yeah the Iraqis were good at hiding things they told us. Where's the WMD? Still hidden? Possibly but not likely.

They went so far as to create a unaccountable prison and court systems. All beyond the jurisdiction of congress and our legal system. Even making sure that it's not on our soil, the only valid reason for such a facility is to avoid that open government accountability issue. They went so far as to create an intelligence apparatus comprised of likeminded neo-cons, who filtered the evidence of Iraq's potential until it could be stretched to give them the possibility of legitimate purpose.

They fostered a terrorist nation and in the same breath regarded that nation Pakistan as a friendly. All while a top Pakistani scientist shared how to be a nuclear terrorist with other nations deemed "not with us". And while Pakistan harbors the criminal who planned the attacks that the neo-cons say gave them legitimate purpose to start wars with nations that didn't even attack us. They destroyed an entire branch on the non-proliferation division of the CIA because a husband stood up against the perception of legitimacy they worked so hard in fostering.

Why would a law abiding president go to such lengths to avoid the law?


Posted by Bob, a resident of Castlewood
on Apr 22, 2008 at 11:38 pm

So, libertypirate, I ask again- can you point to anyone who has successfully litigated against Bush or the government for wiretapping that harmed a regular citizen like you or me? Anyone?


Posted by libertypirate, a resident of another community
on Apr 23, 2008 at 8:21 am

Bob --

Why do you need me to provide you with this exact example of specific wrong doing? You even suggest it doesn't exist. This question is a set up...

This is a point also made by the ditto bots in the news. It is suggesting that there is no reason to even have a conversation regarding a president who orders war crimes. A president who starts wars with countries he can only suggest are a threat?

You know what really offends me is the suggestion that the administration by it's actions hasn't caused harm...

In fact it makes my blood boil, take any child who has to grow up without a father, or any soldier who is confined to a chair for the rest of their life. Lost arms, legs, eyes, face, are all harm caused by this presidents lies. One soldier was asking his wife to leave him so he could kill himself; it's heart wrenching! Then some prick on TV suggest they volunteered for such is blasphemous.

Sir what is an irregular citizen of this country? Is that like being almost pregnant?


Posted by AL, a resident of Highland Oaks
on Apr 23, 2008 at 9:41 am

"liberty"pirate-

Your blood would boil no matter what because your life is run by emotions, rather than common sense. I don't really see how you equate war with a president committing crimes, but then again, I don't run my life based on my emotions.


Posted by Susan, a resident of Amador Estates
on Apr 23, 2008 at 10:18 am

Bob---I think the answer to your question to libertypirate is actually no. That's the condensed version of the response given in the latest narrative by this "regular" citizen.

Got Koolaid?


Posted by Stacey, a resident of Amberwood/Wood Meadows
on Apr 23, 2008 at 11:36 am

The AT&T vs. EFF case is still tied up. The EFF won against an attempt by the government to have the case dismissed due to "state secrets privilege". Currently, the govt is appealing the decision to not dismiss the case, which means that the actual suit against AT&T is a long way from being heard in court. Also, it appears that Congress is discussing granting immunity to telecom companies who break the law when asked to do so by the Feds.

The Islamic charity case also appears to be "in process".

Here's info I found from the EFF (Electronic Frontier Foundation) on the whole NSA spying issue: Web Link

It still doesn't make it ok for the President and his administration to break the law. We _do_ have laws governing the rules regarding wiretapping so it isn't like the administration can't get the info they need. If we, as a country, can't follow our own laws and respect our Constitution, the war against terrorists or any other enemy is already lost. Seriously, someone tell me why again are our young men and women over in Iraq sacrificing themselves and defending a Constitution that our President doesn't even respect?


Posted by libertypirate, a resident of another community
on Apr 23, 2008 at 12:45 pm

A person who regurgitates FAUX views is insinuating that I run my life by my emotions. It's all that "regularly scheduled programming" getting in the way of your ability see what it is you are doing. I gave you a list of criminal activity, you respond with a carefully crafted language construct designed to limit my response to an acute set of facts.

You are asking me about something outside of the bounds of what you know exists. This makes you dishonest; do you even care that your truthiness is really glorified lying?

This article informs us of a still secret memo used by the administration to justify behavior. A memo that is no longer operable but for some reason must be kept secret. Historically leaders who go to extraordinary lengths to both justify their behavior and then keep it a secret do so for their own benefit and not for that of their country.

Link bellow...

THE recent release of a Justice Department memo authorizing the use of torture is a disturbing look at the twisted legal reasoning of one administration lawyer who would let the President and those acting on his behalf circumvent the law.
....
The administration used that still-secret memo to justify warrantless wiretapping for six years, from October, 2001, until January, 2007, when the White House finally resumed seeking surveillance warrants from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.
Web Link


Posted by Stacey, a resident of Amberwood/Wood Meadows
on Apr 23, 2008 at 1:22 pm

Warrantless wiretapping from Oct 2001? Oh no. It just came out in the news recently that the program was up and running BEFORE 9/11.


Posted by libertypirate, a resident of another community
on Apr 23, 2008 at 3:37 pm

You absolutely are right Stacey,

Defendant Joseph P. Nacchio ... respectfully renews his objection to the Court's rulings excluding testimony surrounding his February 27, 2001 meeting at Ft. Meade with representatives from the National Security Agency (NSA) as violative of his constitutional right to mount a defense.

Web Link


Posted by AL, a resident of Highland Oaks
on Apr 23, 2008 at 3:50 pm

"liberty"pirate-

How do you know what my FAUX views are? You don't even know if I like or voted for Pres. Bush. Oh, but that's right, you let your emotions dictate and run your life, as well as your posts. You make a lot of assumptions about people.


Posted by Stacey, a resident of Amberwood/Wood Meadows
on Apr 23, 2008 at 4:09 pm

While we're on the topic of Bush, don't miss this:
"Study: Bush, aides made 935 false statements in run-up to war"
Web Link
And the searchable database of the lies mentioned in above article:
Web Link


Posted by raj, a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Apr 23, 2008 at 11:40 pm

For a different perspective and more to the story referenced above:

Web Link


Posted by Stacey, a resident of Amberwood/Wood Meadows
on Apr 24, 2008 at 7:56 am

I dunno, Raj. That article you posted was more focused about CPI instead of about the Goebbels-like manipulation of popular opinion so effectively used by the Bush administration. The only "refute" it could provide was quotes from a bunch of democrats, but it is unclear if they were just as manipulated as we all were. The article certainly doesn't have the scale of research on those democrats as the CPI database does on the Bush administration. It would be fair to provide one (heh, like Hillary's trip to Bosnia?).


Posted by Stacey, a resident of Amberwood/Wood Meadows
on Apr 25, 2008 at 8:00 am

Now here's an interesting and related article that appeared recently. More public opinion manipulation served up from the Bush administration.

"Behind TV Analysts, Pentagon's Hidden Hand" Web Link

and an interview with the author of the article Web Link


Posted by raj, a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Apr 25, 2008 at 9:17 pm

Wow Stacey, you think political spin is exclusive to Bush? Come on now, how about the NY Times that you continue to quote as though they are agenda-free. I enjoy reading Web Link for a conservative spin on the Times very liberal bias.


Posted by Stacey, a resident of Amberwood/Wood Meadows
on Apr 25, 2008 at 9:51 pm

No raj I don't believe spin is exclusive to Bush & Co. Not even sure how quoting the New York Times would give you the indication that I think they are agenda-free. But let me be clear that a "news source" creating spin is not at all the same as a President and his administration doing so. After all, the only profit a news source will obtain from spin is monetary in nature while the government is obtaining public consent for its illegal policies.


Posted by Jerry, a resident of Oak Hill
on Apr 25, 2008 at 11:41 pm

Have these "illegal policies" been proven to be illegal. Has anyone been convicted - doing time. How do they effect the average John/Jane Doe's daily life.

Still can't understand why Nancy Pelosi and/or Harry Reid haven't taken action to end these "illegal policies". Didn't they pledge to clean things up..........Since they see the same intelligence reports as the Prez, is it possible they realize these "policies" are necessary to protect this country and have merely chosen to huff and puff about them for political purposes.


Posted by libertypirate, a resident of another community
on Apr 26, 2008 at 10:05 am

So incensed with their gotcha politics that the talking pointers plow ahead.

Just an update on how wire tapping doesn't hurt so why should anyone mind logic...

From Wired 4-25-2998:
First the Feds investigate a Saudi charity in Oregon, wiretap the director and two of the group's lawyers, try to designate it a terrorist group and accidentally give the group proof of the wiretapping. Then years later when Al Haramain's American lawyers sue, claiming they were wiretapped without warrants, the feds seek to bury the case with a nearly all powerful litigation tool known as the 'state secrets' privilege, raising profound questions about whether the president is accountable to the law.
....
Web Link

It has been apparent for sometime that legitimate "States Secrets" have been abused when no other legitimate purpose to criminal behavior can be established or maintained. BTW, States Secrets have been the cornerstone of the Bushies' pResidency. It's all states secrets all the time with these guys.

You name it the War in Errors, Support our oops, hurricane in absentia; it has been argued that this queer presidency is above all others in answering the law.

Jerry what about this case has allowed you to build such uber misconceptions, your not paying attention, you've put too much emphasis on talking points, or you maintain a personal classification system determining who is a regular American? Thus who should get regular justice and who you don't mind as much getting justice the gestapo style.


Posted by Stacey, a resident of Amberwood/Wood Meadows
on Apr 26, 2008 at 10:57 am

Jerry,

There is a law called FISA that governs the rules regarding wiretapping. The question is whether Bush's warrentless wiretapping is a violation of FISA.

Congress _has_ been acting on the issue recently.


Posted by Pleasanton Mom, a resident of Mission Park
on Apr 26, 2008 at 7:51 pm

Gosh, wasn't Dennis Hastert speaker of the house when all this was going on and Bill Frist Senate Majority leader? I'm pretty sure they're Republicans and pals with the Prez. Didn't they care about our country when the President seemed to be going down the wrong road? I'm surprised they didn't do anything about it. But I guess that's Nancy Pelosi's fault too...



Posted by Jerry, a resident of Oak Hill
on Apr 26, 2008 at 11:36 pm

Could this be all speculation or has someone gone to the grey bar hotel for these "illegal policies". Names please.........

I'm well aware of the FISA Court. Has it been established President Bush violated the jurisdiction of this court or is it just "questioned" by some that wish it were true.

Don't remember Hastert and Frist claiming they would do anything about "it" - Pelosi and Reid did. They rant and rave about "it" constantly for political purposes.

libertypirate, Oh, I'm paying attention and I'm also amused by all the foaming at the mouth by the people that hate George W. Bush for attempting to keep this country safe. Didn't the person in your Web Link have ties to al Qaeda? Could you give your definition of a "regular American". "Justice the gestapo style" - where has this taken place? "Uder misconceptions"? Who judged your conceptions to be gospel. You're funny.... As has been said - "Keep drinking that koolaid"!!!


Posted by Pleasanton Mom, a resident of Mission Park
on Apr 27, 2008 at 6:09 am

I am really amazed at how blind people will keep themselves to follow George Bush. Do you really believe that since you're a republican and he's a republican there shouldn't be any personal responsibility for republicans? That they can do no wrong? Do you believe our country is going down the right road? Are you happy about the way and reasons our young people are dying is this war? Do you feel bad when you see the images of the people that suffered during Katrina? Have you or your neighbors been affected by this unregulated mortage debaucle? I guess if you're fine with all that more power to you. But you know what, people (and a heck of a lot of them too) are not okay with that and they are not blinded by a man that walks around like he watched too many John Wayne movies as a boy. And no nasty name calling and emotional rants are going to change that.


Posted by Stacey, a resident of Amberwood/Wood Meadows
on Apr 27, 2008 at 9:08 am

There's a lot of assumption going on here through lack of knowledge of the details on the NSA thing. It is understandable given how much attention "regular citizens" normally pay to such current issues that they aren't blasted 24/7 by the news commentary channels. Now you may deride Wikipedia due to its open nature and past controversies, but it is one of the few sources where one can find the information in one convenient place written as unbiased as possible on such a current issue. (Hey look, I'm not citing the New York Times now.)

NSA electronic surveillance program Web Link

NSA warrantless surveillance controversy Web Link

Legal challenges to NSA warrantless searches in the United States Web Link

Congressional response to the NSA warrantless surveillance program Web Link

Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act Web Link

Interesting to note that the Bush administration has now conformed their activity to FISA after the questioning started.


Posted by Angela, a resident of Mohr Park
on Apr 27, 2008 at 6:02 pm

Remember the election in 2006?
>
> Thought you might like to read the following:
>
> A little over one year ago:
>
> 1) Consumer confidence stood at a 2 1/2 year high;
>
> 2) Regular gasoline sold for $2.19 a gallon;
>
> 3) The unemployment rate was 4.5%.>
>
> Since voting in a Democratic Congress in 2006 we have
> seen:
> 1) Consumer confidence plummet;
>
> 2) The cost of regular gasoline soar to over $3.50 a
> gallon;
>
> 3) Unemployment is up to 5% (a 10% increase);
>
> 4) American households have seen $2.3 trillion in equity
> value evaporate
> (stock and mutual fund losses);
>
> 5) Americans have seen their home equity drop by $1.2
> trillion dollars;
>
> 6) 1% of American homes are in foreclosure.
> America voted for change in 2006, and we got it!
>
> Remember it's Congress that makes law not the
> President. He has to work with
> what's handed to him.


Posted by Jerry, a resident of Oak Hill
on Apr 28, 2008 at 12:36 am

After reviewing all the Web Links provided, all I could find was opposing political speculation, courts over-ruling courts, "unbiased" reporters speculating(yes, the N Y Times, Washington Post, ACLU, ABC News, CBS News, among other were involved), whistle blowers that "carried bagage", etc. No concrete evidence that ordinary citizens were being wire-tapped but I did read where communications between suspected terrorist connections in this country and their equivalents abroad were monitered. If that's keeping this country safe, so be it...... I believe I also read there were no plans to tap "ordinary citizens". Somewhere in there it stated President Bush gave instructions that no one except those planning to harm our citizens/country were to be tapped - but how can you trust a man that "walks around like he watched too many John Wayne movies as a boy" - now that's funny. :)

Then there's Katrina - where the N. O. Mayor let 200 buses, that could have been utilized to carry people to safety, drown while screaming "Get off your a** and help us". Maybe we should first attempt to help ourselves, then ask for additional help. Not run around in circles doing nothing while blaming others for our incompetence. Even most of his law-inforcement officers left him......

"Unregulated mortage debaucle" - did George W. Bush cause this or was it pure greed on the part of the mortage industry. Maybe he should have passed a law against....Opps, isn't that the responsibility of the Legislative Branch. I agree someone should do time for that "debaucle. Probably have to build a new "Rehab Institution" in order to hold all those connected.

Wikipedia "written as unbiased as possible" - when they state one needs no qualifications to contribute. Now we can certainly expect that Web Site to provide true and unbiased information on "current issues". Why not just watch Dan Rather or Keith Olbermann. Same results....


Posted by Stacey, a resident of Amberwood/Wood Meadows
on Apr 28, 2008 at 7:45 am

What is an "ordinary citizen" and who gets to decide what that is?


Posted by Stacey, a resident of Amberwood/Wood Meadows
on Apr 28, 2008 at 7:47 am

By the way, Jerry, the issue isn't wiretapping itself as you keep trying to make it out to be. The issue is wiretapping without a warrant, in violation of FISA and in violation of the Fourth Amendment.


Posted by libertypirate, a resident of another community
on Apr 28, 2008 at 12:38 pm

Conservatives you have spent so much time pointing fingers at everyone else it isn't going to work any longer. All of which is just the same regurgitated narratives used to scare the base into line. Your methods are tired, damaged, and most notable you have worn them out. So keep it up!!! PLEASE!!! I know I'm begging, but really really try harder.

Mostly it is just sad you think your making actual points out of nothing at all. Yes, we all know your just repeating something you heard, unsubstantiated although strongly emoted which does nothing but make it sound truthiness. It must suck to always sound as though your right but always left standing an empty bag of FAUX facts.

As for presnut kookoo bananas, the worst president ever; 99 out of a hundred historians don't need any more history to agree.


Posted by Pleasanton Mom, a resident of Mission Park
on Apr 28, 2008 at 5:55 pm

Jerry, I have to completely disagree with pretty much everything you have said. The issues with the unsafe levees are definitely a federal issue. Also, did you totally miss the "good job Brownie" thing? He was a failure. I was personally sickened to see people from our country, our own American brothers and sisters, being left to die in such deplorable conditions and to continue living in those conditions to this day. Yes, that WAS a problem with our FEDERAL government's response. As for deregulation, being the staunch republican that you are I'm sure that you know that is a republican issue. Your guys deregulate everything but don't want to clean up the mess afterwards. As for the economy now, it is a direct result of the "tax breaks and war spending" initiated, again, buy YOUR guy. You can't blame the dems for everything. Well, you can, but you'd be wrong.


Posted by libertypirate, a resident of another community
on Apr 28, 2008 at 11:53 pm

Stacey I think what most people are missing is that FISA was not designed to deal with how current technology is being employed for intercepting data communications.

There is no US law that allows for the wholesale copying of entire segments of network communications stream. The network diagrams from AT&T detail this is what has been built. You don't need massive data storage arrays and a massive private back data channel if your just looking at the traffic as it passes by.

Web Link

They are not targeting individuals or even a group of individuals; which would be considered wiretapping. The administration is copying traffic for back channel analysis. And it just so happens through this kind of system one wouldn't have to wiretap an individual political adversary.

Since they are copying everything it becomes hard to pinpoint directly who it is they have even been looking at in the entire stream. It is just amazing how much this administration pretends to embrace accountability; while they secretly obsess with not being accountable.


Posted by Jerry, a resident of Oak Hill
on Apr 29, 2008 at 4:01 am

My feeble attempt at defining an "ordinary citizen" as related to this little discussion - a person that goes about daily life in a manner that doesn't threaten great harm to this country or it's citizens.

Now how would one know I'm a Republician? Whatever political party I may be aligned with, I'm a person that believes our federal government has the primary responsibility of keeping our citizens safe - If I'm not mistaken, that's one of the primary responsibilities of the President Of The United States. Now if that entails violating the FISA/Fourth Amendment "rights" of those(terrorist abroad and their cohorts in this country communicating between countries)attempting/determined to do great harm to this country and its citizens, so be it. Please note I said, "terrorist abroad and their cohorts in this country".

Pleasanton Mom, I agree the levee problems were a federal issue. If I'm not mistaken, the levee problems were later determined to be a result of Corp's of Engineers errors made when the levees were originally erected many years ago. There were many mistakes made during the Katrina crisis(yes, "Brownie" was one of the mistakes)but didn't the President contact the Governor of Louisiana and ask if they needed help at the onset - if I'm not mistaken, her response was "No". After events got out of hand she, and the N. O. Mayor, began to scream, "We're getting no help from the Federal Government" or words to that effect. Wasn't it established the Federal Government is forbidden to join local or state events without permission from state or local officials. This is not my opinion, it was all broadcast in living color to every TV set in this country. No sane person wishes to see suffering such as witnessed as this tradgedy was taking place but how one can lay the entire blame for lose of life and suffering on the Fed's, while local and state officials ran in circles and did nothing, is beyond belief, no matter what political party occupied the White House. No doubt the Fed's made mistakes but the initial mistakes that led to lose of life rest on the shoulders of the local and state officials. With an open mind, this can all be verified by watching the many "Katrina Specials" on PBS and other channels.

What de-regulation led to the mortage mess that you seem to believe tax payers should "clean up". I'm not responsible for bailing out someone that irresponsibly signs a document without understanding what they are getting themselves into. As for the economy - Angela has that pretty much covered in her post.

You state one "can't blame the dems for everything". Take a few moments and review all you've written on this thread and see if that isn't exactly what you've done with the George W. Bush/Republicans.

Bt the way, how do you know I'm a Republician. Don't put any money on it, I just might be someone that can think for myself and not buy all the junk spouted by TV liberals that hate President Bush.


Posted by Angela, a resident of Mohr Park
on Apr 29, 2008 at 5:29 am

Quote of the Day........"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as
we try to change it."
-- Barack Obama

Be careful what you wish for!



Posted by Pleasanton Mom, a resident of Mission Park
on Apr 29, 2008 at 6:45 am

That's funny Angela!

The following quotation has been making the rounds of Republican blogs:

"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it." -- Barack Obama

Along with all the predictable moans and groans of disapprobation, I actually found one Obama supporter attempting to defend the statement. Trouble is, Obama said no such thing.

It's a spoof, originally posted on Mark Steyn's blog on NationalReview.com. What's more, Obama wasn't even its intended target -- John McCain was. To quote Mr. Steyn's January 28, 2008 posting:

Three weeks ago, after New Hampshire, when Hill and McCain and the gang were all bragging about being "agents of change," a (non-U.S.) correspondent of mine emailed me his all-purpose stump speech for this primary season:

My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it.

All's fair in politics, eh?

Gotta be careful about the republican blogs!


Posted by Pleasanton Mom, a resident of Mission Park
on Apr 29, 2008 at 6:46 am

Oops, I forgot to state the above statement was made by David Emery - not me!


Posted by Pleasanton Mom, a resident of Mission Park
on Apr 29, 2008 at 6:52 am

Jerry - How do you feel about your money going to bail out Bear Stearns?


Posted by Stacey, a resident of Amberwood/Wood Meadows
on Apr 29, 2008 at 8:08 am

Jerry,
Ordinary citizens; you know that's a can of worms. Violating our own laws as a means to an end; I feel that makes us not worth the result.

Partisan politics; check out politicalcompass.org. I get tired of the whole "liberal vs. conservative"/"Republican vs. Democrat" story.

Re-pasting content from obvious chain emails; boring.


Posted by Gloria, a resident of Del Prado
on Apr 29, 2008 at 10:17 am

So funny, the DNC has been yelling and screaming for eight long years impeach Bush, calling him every name in the book and the best thing the DNC can put on the ballot this year is Hillary Clinton or Obama. After eight years you would have thought they could bring more to the table then that. I chose neither…….


Posted by Pleasanton Mom, a resident of Mission Park
on Apr 29, 2008 at 10:33 am

Gloria, I'm sure you wouldn't have chosen a Dem no matter who they put up....just a feeling.


Posted by A citizen, a resident of Del Prado
on Apr 29, 2008 at 10:53 am

I know Gloria, I couldn't agree more! Smart people so suck.


Posted by Shelley, a resident of Downtown
on Apr 29, 2008 at 4:11 pm

So people can be more informed about the sub-prime mortgage crisis, I suggest listening to this VERY informative interview with Michael Greenberger on NPR's Fresh Air. Web Link
The lenders were _betting_ people would pay their loans because the house value would inflate. That's right, _betting_, like gambling. Nice to know, huh? We can thank those that drive certain political policies that encourage deregulation: the derivatives market, where these bets were made, was not a regulated financial market.


Posted by Jerry, a resident of Oak Hill
on Apr 30, 2008 at 12:19 am

Pleasanton Mom,

Any politician(from any political party)that votes/voted to bail out Bear Stearns should be held accountable. Bear Stearns is no better than the dummie that signed a mortage without first reading it. Bail out neither!!! Someone should go to jail for this fiasco - start with those at the bottom that falsified documents, then progress up the ladder to where ever it may lead. No one can convince me those involved didn't know what was taking place.


Stacy,

Yep, "can of worms" but you ask and I fell for it. :)

When under attack, if one wouldn't use any "means to an end ", suited to the battle, then we're in deep trouble. First rule of a firefight - "Fire until the enemy is no longer a threat, whether it's one shot or one hundred shots".


Posted by Shelley, a resident of Downtown
on Apr 30, 2008 at 8:12 am

Jerry, it's not necessarily the fault of the "dummie that signed a mortgage without reading it." I used to think that the people who went for these loans should be held accountable, and to some extent, they did sign up for more than they could pay for. However, if you would listen to the NPR interview where Michael Greenberger explains the sub-prime mortgage crisis, you would learn that the blame should also be put upon the banks and financial firms that bought and sold mortgage securities in the unregulated financial derivatives market. The reason the interest rates on the loans were so low was that the lenders were almost 100% certain that people would pay more and more of the house off in the beginning because the value of the house would jump because the real estate market was so hot. Not so. Banks put the loans on their balance sheets as an ASSET! Then they had to take it off the books because it became more and more clear that people were not going to be able to pay off the loans. Where's Arthur Andersen when you need them? How could banks and financial firms be cooking the books in a post-Enron era? Because the market these types of mortgages were sold in is unregulated. And which political party do you think pushes more and more deregulation? Where there's a will, there's a way ...


Posted by Stacey, a resident of Amberwood/Wood Meadows
on Apr 30, 2008 at 10:07 am

In related news, here's something the government does regularly to "ordinary citizens" both warrantless and without probable cause.

"as they hunt for evidence" Web Link

Yea, this has to hit the Supreme Court at some point... Thank goodness so far for free, open source, high-grade encryption.


Posted by Reality, a resident of Pheasant Ridge
on Aug 23, 2008 at 6:07 pm

Leftist thoughts and ideals have killed more people in the 20th century than both world wars combined.

I, myself, rejoice at being called a conservative as it reminds me that I have not forgotten what the American Dream is and what the spirit of the Constitution is.

You liberals are so quick to defend your fist amendment and fourth amendment rights yet ignore a certain other amendment (yes, I mean the Second Amendment, the most important one). It's good that you cherry pick the Constitution. Because it shows the rest of us how much of a "freedom hyprocrite" you are.

For most of you, it's not about Bush violating due process or suppressing free speech. It's about Iraq, Iran, the appointment of supreme court judges, abortion, the death penalty, the continued support of Israel and the continued fight against terror. It's not about freedom of anything for you liberals. So please, do not disguise your hate as anything but.

I came from a country where Stacey's and "LibertyPirates" brethren have come to power. Soon, they will be able to think for you and talk for you and vote for you. Let me tell you, I never want to live under such occupation ever again and I thank GOD (yes, GOD) that I am here in the US of A.

I am apalled that American citizens can have such leftist mindsets. Yes, I consider leftists a National Security issue because it's not enough that "ordinary" citizens think this way, but many of those entrusted with the reigns of government are moving that way as well (or are already there).

Why can't Americans learn from the old USSR, Columbia, East Germany, Zimbabwe, and all those other leftist countries.

There is a reason America is great: it's because leftist, for a very long time, have been held at bay by people like George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Teddy Roosevelt, Ronald Regan, Mrs. Palin of Alaska, Rush Limbaugh, and many others.

Sorry if I got long winded. This was not meant to be personal. Just thought everyone should hear from someone who has been to where this country may be heading.


Posted by Stacey, a resident of Amberwood/Wood Meadows
on Aug 24, 2008 at 7:46 am

Reality,

Of course your mistake is in assuming too much about the other posters on this forum (is everyone who doesn't agree with you a "leftist"?). I never wrote anything here about the Second Amendment because it didn't apply to the topic. I love the Second Amendment. Yes, I own a gun (and a few bows). I'm also a supporter of property owner rights and write frequently here against "tyranny of the majority". I'm registered non-partisan and am not a fan of political parties. I like to think that helps me remain unblinded by a "party line", but I know I have my own biases.

And you're wrong as to why America is great. It isn't great based upon the suppression of groups of people, but on the freedom it grants to groups of people.


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