Only GOP will defend "In God We Trust" ? State, National, International, posted by jimf01, a resident of another community, on Nov 17, 2009 at 9:49 am jimf01 is a member (registered user) of PleasantonWeekly.com
44 members of Congress signed an amicus brief opposing an attempt by the Madison, Wisc.-based Freedom From Religion Foundation to remove the inscription, which also includes the words "one nation under God" and "In God We Trust" from the wall of the new Capitol Visitors Center.
What none of the articles I can find explain is why there are no Democrats signed on? Were they asked to participate, or excluded?
Of course, this story cannot be found in the mainstream media. Bloggers are covering the press release from the ACLJ, but little or no investigation has been done that I can find.
Posted by jimf01, a resident of another community, on Nov 17, 2009 at 10:15 am jimf01 is a member (registered user) of PleasantonWeekly.com
I can ask you the same question, as removing any mention of God is a 'religious choice' in the context you present it. Removing the slogans is offensive to me as a Christian.
"In God We Trust", despite any challenge by athiests, is still the national motto of the United States of America. Removing the slogans is offensive to me as an American. If the national motto of the country is offensive to them
Posted by RR, a resident of the Another Pleasanton neighborhood neighborhood, on Nov 17, 2009 at 10:29 am
Any mention of God should have been removed from any Government slogan, money, sign, building, etc.
Religion differences have created more wars in history than anything else. Everyone should have the right to have a religion of their choice but in the privacy of their home or church. Keep it out of Government, in any kind, shape of form.
Posted by jimf01, a resident of another community, on Nov 17, 2009 at 11:19 am jimf01 is a member (registered user) of PleasantonWeekly.com
misguided ploy in 1956?
Just to get a more complete history of the phrase in here --> Web Link
In part, the link states that In God We Trust appeared on US currency first in 1864, and President Theodore Roosevelt, who opposed putting the phrase on currency, wrote
...It is a motto which it is indeed well to have inscribed on our great national monuments, in our temples of justice, in our legislative halls, and in building such as those at West Point and Annapolis -- in short, wherever it will tend to arouse and inspire a lofty emotion in those who look thereon...
...the FFRF initiated a lawsuit in 1994 to have it removed from U.S. paper currency and coins. They also wanted it to be discontinued as the national motto. Their lawsuit was dismissed by a US District Court without trial, on the grounds that "In God We Trust" is not a religious phrase...and not an endorsement of religion."...The U.S. Supreme Court declined to review all of these rulings
Posted by Moderate, a resident of the Another Pleasanton neighborhood neighborhood, on Nov 17, 2009 at 12:32 pm
To jimf01, thank you for the info on what the courts are doing on this subject.
I find it nothing offensive about "In God We Trust". Enough is enough. I am glad to see the courts still have their senses together - across political affiliations and leanings. Thank GOD! I am not even religious!
Posted by Bob, a resident of the Pleasanton Meadows neighborhood, on Nov 17, 2009 at 3:13 pm
That is some selective quoting you're doing there, jimf01.
Let me do some selective quoting from that same link:
"The original motto of the United States was secular. "E Pluribus Unum" is Latin for "One from many" "
"In 1956, the nation was suffering through the height of the cold war, and the McCarthy communist witch hunt. Partly in reaction to these factors, the 84th Congress passed a joint resolution to replace the existing motto with "In God we Trust." "
"Is the motto constitutional?
The "In God we Trust" motto promotes theistic religion at the expense of non theistic religion and a secular lifestyle. It promotes the belief in a single, male deity which is followed by the main Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam; however, it is foreign to the beliefs of many other religions: Buddhists do not believe in a personal deity; Zoroastrians and Wiccans believe in two deities; Hindus believe in many. It would seem to violate the principle of separation of church and state. Many Agnostics, Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Wiccans, other Neopagans, and others are offended by the motto. "
Posted by posi boy, a resident of the Another Pleasanton neighborhood neighborhood, on Nov 18, 2009 at 9:00 am
RE: "What none of the articles I can find explain is why there are no Democrats signed on?"
Jimf01, isn't it obvious by now that the democrats hate america. That's the overriding theme of this forum. The democrats are secretly in league with the communists/socialists/fascists/islamics/etc, so why would you expect them to sign on to something like this? Oh yeah, maybe they're too busy doing the real work of government like passing healthcare reform, a stimulus bill, a climate change bill, etc. while the GOP sits back and stonewalls the proceedings and pass ridiculous token measures like the one listed above.
When the GOP gets off its behinds and realize that whether or not the words In God We Trust are written on a wall somewhere does nothing to put food in the mouth of those without or helps shelter those who are currently homeless due to the economic downturn, they'll never regain their footing in congress. This is like complaining about your neighbor's new doormat while watching your house burn. The GOP needs to start making positive contributions to help ease the burden off their constituents lives, they need to have an actual plan to bring solutions to the problems citizens face, instead of simply stonewalling whatever the democrats are doing...until then, they'll be known as the party of no and be stumbling around in the political wilderness looking for token causes to latch onto...and they're party leader will be a woman who spends her time whining about the mean old librul media and her publicly naked stepson...
Posted by SteveP, a resident of the Parkside neighborhood, on Nov 18, 2009 at 9:03 am SteveP is a member (registered user) of PleasantonWeekly.com
The comment about religions and wars is an interesting one, considering the recent Fort Hood incident and the Obama administrations decision to recognize terrorists in a NY court. It's not God-fearing Christians in modern times you have to worry about. But, if you want to incite a war, continue to dismantle the foundation of our country, our beliefs and morals. Otherwise, leave what's not broken alone.
Get a job or a hobby to occupy your time, rather than dragging the rest of us down to your petty level.
Posted by poster boi, a resident of the Another Pleasanton neighborhood neighborhood, on Nov 18, 2009 at 11:43 am
Jimf01, the point is who is diverting and distorting? This country is 80% christian and yet we hear time and again how "christianity is under attack!" Could it possibly be that it's a know-nothing party trying to whip up its dwindling constituency with substanceless jestures and faux outrage on wedge issues, feeding this sense of both entitlement and imagined oppression. My point is straight to the topic. If you believe not having the words "In God We Trust" printed on a public building wall will have any effect AT ALL in how you live your life or the quality of HOW our society functions or how well the government functions, then you're delusional. My point is succinct...if the GOP keeps fighting these meaningless battles that have no direct impact on people lives while continuing to avoid coming up with plans or policies to address the problems people REALLY face, then they'll remain the minority party. And as long as you continue to consider this line of argument as a diversion, then you'll continue to wander in the wilderness with the rest of the GOP. Explain in direct terms how printing this phrase on the wall will help pay for our underfunded schools, will provide healthcare to my family, will help those out of work find work, etc...THOSE are the problems the GOP needs to face, and the fact that they choose to fight these battles while the Dems ignore them is why we currently have the government controlled by the Dems...THAT's the point.
Posted by jimf01, a resident of another community, on Nov 18, 2009 at 12:16 pm
If I or anything I linked is complaining "Christianity is under attack" then show that to me. The issue here is a legal one. So that makes your premise and your points a distortion and diversion.
If you do not understand that destroying this nation's traditions one by one is detrimental to society, then it is you who is delusional.
See, now I know it is pb because you resort back to your its a meaningless issue not important to anyone, as you always do when you come in and comment on my threads.
The GOP can, at times, walk and chew gum, despite your further attempt at the old red herring, e.g. please explain to me how (insert real issue) is going to help fix (insert completely unrelated issue).
See I can do it too: Would you sir, now please explain to me how health care reform is going to help cut down the number of late flights at SFO airport? Until we can get planes flying on time, Congress has no business changing our health care system!!!
If you want to argue those three separate, completely unrelated issues, i.e.
-(not)underfunded (but underperforming) schools
- healthcare for my family (who already have healthcare you said earlier)
- helping those out of work find work (ask Obama, he is going to tackle that on Dec 3rd apparently),
then start three new threads. Until then, stick to the point and stop being a dork.
Posted by po bo, a resident of the Another Pleasanton neighborhood neighborhood, on Nov 18, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Apparently you missed my point. You originally asked in your post why isn't the democratic party signing on to this outrage. My point is that this is faux outrage about something that has no real impact on anyone's life and my point is about the GOP not having solutions to REAL problems americans face, and to further that point I listed those three issues, and all this is to explain exactly why the democratic party isn't signing onto this. This wasn't an attempt to redirect the discussion to those issues, it was rather to use it as a point that the GOP screams bloody murder about faux outrages like this In God We Trust thing to cover the fact they have no ideas for solutions to address the REAL problems americans face. That is entirely my point. I've just restated again in more specific terms so you don't miss it yet again. You say the GOP "can walk and chew gum at the same time"...apparently not because all they're doing right now is folding their arms and turning their backs on the problems americans are facing. So I go back to my original point. With all the problems the democrats are facing right now with solutions they're presenting to address them, why should they waste their time on something that will do NOTHING to improve the quality of their constituents lives. It's nice that you have the luxury to direct your outrage at something so superficial and ridiculous as worrying about a motto not being printed on a wall, but the rest of us are dealing with real issues out here like feeding our families and maintaining the quality of our lives...and to answer your original post: THIS IS WHY THE DEMOCRATS ARE IGNORING THIS RIDICULOUSNESS. Is that clear enough for ya?
Posted by jimf01, a resident of another community, on Nov 18, 2009 at 1:31 pm
I clearly did understand your point that is a ridiculous non-issue, because that is ALWAYS your point. And after you got through trotting out stupid metaphors and going after Palin and repeating your lack of understanding of GOP proposals on unrelated issues before the Congress, you repeated that point, even after I replied to it. I know its tough to not have a cut and paste from Kos to help you, but maybe think a little on your own about an issue instead of knee-jerk defense of everything the Dems do (or do not do in this case).
As for these meaningless non issues keeping the GOP in the minority, welp, ya best go take a look at the latest polls in battleground states and the generic Dem vs Rep numbers for the 2010 Congressional elections. Looks like your side is not seeing numbers they like. Hmm, I wonder if the shelving of cap and trade has anything to do with that? I wonder if the Dems are now seeing that the issues they are focusing on are not what the American people want?
Perhaps building a Capitol Visitors Center that reflects American traditions and values IS something that regular Americans feel their representatives in DC should be keeping an eye on?
Posted by Rae, a resident of the Mohr Park neighborhood, on Nov 18, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Steve P said: "It's not God-fearing Christians in modern times you have to worry about."
Really? Actually, there's a name for it; it's called Christian Terrorism. Currently, Christian terrorists seem to be very involved in the anti-abortion movement, like:
The Army of God - an extremist anti-abortion organization that sanctions the use of force to combat abortion. But don't you worry about those poor folks who have been arrested for the murder, assault and bombing of women's health clinics where abortions may be performed. Those heroes have the Prisoners of Christ organization that solicits money, aid and comfort for them - 'cause it's OK to kill if you do it in the name of the Lord . . .
If you want your Christianity with a political twist where the women know their place, there's always the Christian Patriot movement. It grew in the 1990's after Ruby Ridge and the Waco incidents and has ties to the paramilitary and survivalist movements. The Christian Patriot website bills itself as the "Church for the American Christian who is a Patriot, Pro-Christ, Pro-Life, Pro-(pre 1911) Constitution". As far as women go . . . 1 Timothy evidently laid it out for these believers. "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." Some members advocate that "You must pray that Texas will secede, for we as Christians need a place to raise our families free of the power and orders of the US Government, a government that has dedicated itself to mammon, to satan, to money and the things it can buy." Hey, tea party in Texas anyone?
And then, of course, there's always those who like their Christianity white and have allied themselves with the Christian Identity movement, a loose conglomeration of believers and churches based on racial identity.
"Churches" in the Christian Identity movement include the Kingdom Identity Ministries based in Arkansas. They advocate racism, anti-Semitism and the execution of homosexuals, oh, and of course, their brand of patriotism and nationalism.
I'm sure the Christian Identity movement is real proud of one of their cornerstone organizations, the Aryan Nation and their places of worship like the Church of the Messiah (NY), the Church of the Sacred Race (TN), the Church of Jesus Christ Kinsman (CA), the Church of the Confederacy (LA), and the Church of Jesus Christ Christian (OH).
I'm sure these Christian groups get real upset too when there's any talk about separating "God" from government - well, all but the paramilitary and survivalist groups who don't believe in any form of government anyway.
Jimf01 said: "If you do not understand that destroying this nation's traditions one by one is detrimental to society, then it is you who is delusional."
"Faux outrage" indeed! There is absolutely nothing that ties American morals, beliefs or behavior to the motto "In God we trust". It doesn't make us better a country, government or people just because we have something written on our currency, or tacked up in our government buildings, that invokes the "God" from one aspect of one religion. I have yet to read about a politician who claims that spending money containing the words "In God we trust" has made them a better person. . . or a better Christian.
Posted by jimf01, a resident of another community, on Nov 18, 2009 at 4:09 pm
Rae - Your line-up of Christian villians notwithstanding, a poll indicates that 90% of Americans approve of the inscription on U.S. currency.
Further, the Congressional record from the time of adoption of the motto contradicts directly your fallacious statement that there is "nothing that ties American morals, beliefs or behavior to the motto "
"In these days when imperialistic and materialistic Communism seeks to attack and destroy freedom, it is proper" to "remind all of us of this self-evident truth" that "as long as this country trusts in God, it will prevail."
Not sure at all what you are trying to get at with 'the "God" from one aspect of one religion', Chrisitanity is not one religion, and I think even the Jews and Muslims all worship the same God, we all just have a bit of a different take on prophets and holy books and such.
Posted by Jack, a resident of the Downtown neighborhood, on Nov 18, 2009 at 4:45 pm
Democrats are pretty godless wouldn't you say? They are for abortion on demand or in other words murder. Seperation of church and state has nothing to do with worship it only says that the government will make no church of its own nor make everyone attend the church of the governments choice. Based on revolt by the colonies against the church of england. Quite misunderstood by most.
Posted by Janna, a resident of Dublin, on Nov 18, 2009 at 5:15 pm
Yes, we are for murder, every single one of us. (Oy!) That's why democrats start wars and go into other countries and kill their citizens. Oh wait, that's not the democrats! But that kind of murder is ok by you Jack, right because they have brown skin and don't speak English. The US killing their unborn and newborn in your name is just great by you since they're not Americans. Murder in the name of religion and "victory" is just grand. Do you say god is a murderer when women have miscarriages? Or do you blame the woman no matter what? If god gave us free will to do right on our own, then he should trust women and you as a man shouldn't worry about our decisions because god knows what were doing and judges us eventually. If that's the case, then you really needn't concern yourself.
I don't necessarily agree with taking this issue on right now, with all that's going on, but I don't think it's right to endorse religion on our state buildings or money etc, which is what this is. The problem is that believers don't care who they alienate from their own country. Majority rules, screw the minority.
Posted by post ire boy, a resident of the Another Pleasanton neighborhood neighborhood, on Nov 18, 2009 at 5:45 pm
re: "As for these meaningless non issues keeping the GOP in the minority, welp, ya best go take a look at the latest polls..."
The only recent polls that matter are the ones taken in 2006 and 2008 and those show the democrats with 58 seats in the senate and 258 seats in congress and a lock on the presidency. For that matter the most recent poll that really matters is from the NY-23rd where a democrat hasn't held that seat at all since its creation, until sarah palin stepped in (it). But sure, cling to the hopes of whatever future ballot may take place 11 months from now, until then the democrats will continue passing legislation and continue to tackle the real problems americans are facing and not spending their time on lame "causes" like this one...
Posted by Sam, a resident of the Another Pleasanton neighborhood neighborhood, on Nov 18, 2009 at 8:49 pm
I wouldn't put too much stock in some of these poll. A recent poll said that something like 65% of Republicans believe that the earth was created in just a few days and is no more than 10,000 years old. Either the people were lying, or 65% of Republicans are hopeless ignorant and superstitious.
Posted by Rae, a resident of the Mohr Park neighborhood, on Nov 19, 2009 at 10:19 am
jimf01 stated: "Further, the Congressional record from the time of adoption of the motto contradicts directly your fallacious statement that there is "nothing that ties American morals, beliefs or behavior to the motto."
OK, reality check . . . seems to me that those in Congress, on both sides of the aisle, who have held themselves up as defenders of American morals and family values, just had farther to fall when they toppled off of that oh so high pedestal they put themselves on. ("Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall"?) Self-professed Christian Congressional members continue to make their disrespect and disdain for the President, each other, their families, and their constituents quite obvious. Sorry, I don't see any influence from "In God we trust" at work there.
But let's bring it a little closer to home. If you truly believe that Americans are somehow better people, better Christians, because their morals, beliefs and behavior are tied to the "In God we trust" motto, I would like to point you to one small example of Christian behavior in our small microcosm of the world, Pleasanton.
A recent thread, *finally* shut down by the PW, exposed the disciplinary action taken by church officials towards one of their pastors. Christian members on both sides of the issue weighed in. I read nothing that made me stop and say, "Yep, these Christians, are definitely better people because they believe "In God we trust"!
Instead, I found the name-calling and vitriol towards not just the pastor, but fellow congregation members as well, pretty much par for the course on this forum in our "Community of Character".
Some of the statements had me thinking of that Christian phrase so popular a few years ago, "What would Jesus do?", and wondering if these Christians gave it any thought before they posted comments like:
"Do you honestly thing that we, as Christians would just come out of no where to start crap about a man.....just for the heck of it? think again. There is only so long that you can turn away or try and forgive a man who does not even know the meaning of forgiveness himself!", or,
"I do have a certain amount of contempt for members of the congregation whose only contribution to their church is to show up for an hour a week", and
"there is a minority who do all the work to make trinity what it is, while you sit there and enjoy the fruits of other's labor. to my mind that makes you more of a parasite than a member."
Christian charity at work right here in Pleasanton.
Of course, there is one person who seems pretty clear on what being a Christian means, and since he's real close to the motto on a daily basis, I guess he thinks he would know. Goldman Sachs' CEO Lloyd Blankfein has declared he's just "doing God's work". Hmmmmm, wasn't there something in the Bible about Jesus and the moneychangers . . .
Posted by jimf01, a resident of another community, on Nov 19, 2009 at 10:49 am
Rae - you are picking out examples of bad behavior, tiny religious sects that call themselves Christians, pastors behaving badly, etc. I would lecture about the Bible teaching about sins and forgiveness, but I aint going there, the message for you and for Janna is that "In God We Trust" isn't representing Christianity, it isn't a phrase from the Bible, and it doesn't cleanse anyone from sin.
To try and be concise, I think the important reason to defend "In God We Trust" is something I read recently on cato.org"
"My own conviction is that philosophical education is required, moral education is required, psychological education is required, and that no free society can last without an appropriate philosophy and supporting culture. A free society requires and entails a whole set of values, a whole way of looking at people--at human relationships, at the relationship of the individual to the state--about which there has to be some decent level of consensus."
Posted by Sam, a resident of the Another Pleasanton neighborhood neighborhood, on Nov 19, 2009 at 4:42 pm
The fear is that we'll end up allowing teachers to tell our children that the universe was created 6000 years ago and that it took 6 days to create it. It is called scientific creationism some local school districts try to teach it as science.
Posted by Rae, a resident of the Mohr Park neighborhood, on Nov 19, 2009 at 4:48 pm
wow . . . a lecture on sin and forgiveness . . . But really, since I donít know you, and my only interaction with you has been on this forum, the only sin I can think of that you may be feeling responsible for is the scorn and condescension with which you treat posters whose opinions you donít like. Hey, not to worry! You arenít quite as bad as some of the others on this board who hate the policies of the current administration and resort to really nasty vitriolic posts and name-calling. I donít know about Janna, but Iíll leave your conscience to you.
As far as the quote from cato.org, I quite like it. It makes sense to me, but seems to contrast with your theme on this thread that "as long as this country trusts in God, it will prevail." Based on the cato.org quote, maybe our motto should have been ďput knowledge to work.Ē(Peter F Drucker) It rightly puts the responsibility for an individualís values and behavior on the individual, with a proactive requirement to get a well-rounded education, and then to work towards a level of consensus with the larger group. Think how much more Congress could get done if they followed this concept!!
Personally, I donít think our current motto is going away, just as I donít believe the Masonic or pyramid symbolism is going anywhere. I donít think this suit is a big deal, and obviously Congress isnít concerned since only 44 of 535 members signed the brief you mentioned in your original post. We have bigger problems to address in this country.