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Patriots or Communists?

Original post made by Cindy Cross, Parkside, on Oct 6, 2011

Patriots or Communists? By Cindy Cross
Thousands are gathering on Wall Street in New York City to protest corporate greed, defense spending, and the huge disparity between the middle and upper classes. They claim that their goal is to make a statement to the world that America is now run by corporations—not elected government officials.
Starting out as a small group protesting on Wall Street, it has flourished into a nationwide collective of people of all ages tired of the status quo. One protester in New York held a sign reading, "Our problems stem from our acceptance of this filthy rotten system."
But right wing pundits such as Sean Hannity have classified these protesters as 'communists and un-American.' GOP candidate Herman Cain said of the protesters, "Don't blame Wall Street, don't blame the big banks, if you don't have a job and you're not rich, blame yourself," said Cain. "It is not someone's fault if they succeeded. It is someone's fault if they failed."
Earlier this week, Mitt Romney described the protests as "class warfare" and "dangerous." Romney was quoted as saying, 'corporations are people too' during a GOP rally in late summer. If we use Romney's logic, corporations are a sum of its parts, like a person, with the front line employees being the blood supply; the worker bees who keep the corporation afloat. The accounting and finance department would be the brains and the heart would be the CEO; without a healthy heart beat, the corporation would die. One important part of this 'person' is missing, and that would be its soul; the intangible essence of a 'person.' Without a soul one would be in a league with a megalomaniac or a sociopath. Most, if not all, serial killers are sociopaths. Using Romney's logic, corporations are serial killers. They kill people (jobs) without remorse and with impunity. They continue their bloodlust (making money) until they are either caught (fraud), are killed (bankruptcy), or are re-habilitated (government bailout). There are good corporations out there with 'souls', companies run by CEOs who care about the blood running through its veins—its employees. But how many are there? So few in fact, that people are protesting in the thousands.
The Occupy Wall Street Movement, as the media is calling it, has spread to other cities throughout the country, including Boston, Chicago, Washington D.C., Seattle, Los Angeles, and San Francisco.
The big question is whether these protesters should be considered communists or patriots? Right wingers call them communists and un-American, while the left-wing calls them patriots looking out for average Americans.
House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi said of the protesters, "God bless them for their spontaneity. It's young, it's spontaneous, it's focused and it's going to be effective."
We shall see how effective they are, and how long the protests will last.


Comments (17)

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Posted by Mellow Fellow
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 7, 2011 at 10:08 am

After a long surge of extremist politics on both sides, I'm beginning to take a laissez faire attitude. What I mean is that bulbous social reaction is actually a symptom a deeper issue. Yes, the pustule sore on the outside is really just an indication of a deeper malady. This is true on both side of the political equation. To say that Wall Street is NOT greedy is naive, yet to wear purple hair on the streets is pesky. To say that deprecate social spending is outrageous is obvious, but to disdain people because of a lower social class is repellent.

I'm beginning to look at the core problem and then the cure, not the symptom so I can scream bloody murder. I'm feeling much better now.


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Posted by jimf01
a resident of another community
on Oct 7, 2011 at 10:44 am

jimf01 is a registered user.

One way to tell what the truth is in politics nowadays is that it's usually the exact opposite of what Nancy Pelosi says it is. It's not spontaneous, it's astroturf. Watch this video, an interview with one of the main organizers from the "New Party" Web Link

Watch this video from with one of the early planners of this protest, it takes 7 minutes for him to describe their motivations and what they are planning, but he gets to it eventually Web Link

Facts about the backgrounds of these organizers:

* The Working Families Party was established in the 90s by key members of the the socialist organizations The New Party, ACORN, SEIU, and a coalition of other labor unions and community organizations.

* Patrick Gaspard, the current executive director of the DNC, former director of Obama's Office of Political Affairs, was an organizer for the New Party, the executive vice president of the SEIU Local 1199, political director for Bertha Lewis (the former president of ACORN) and a co-chair of the Working Families Party.

* The New Party is a socialist political coalition co-founded in 1992 by academic and political activist Joel Rogers.

* The first strategic meetings to plan the New Party were held in Joel Rogers' Madison, Wisconsin home; Wade Rathke, ACORN and SEIU founder and Gerry Hudson from Democratic Socialists of America and SEIU were in attendance at those meetings.

* The New Party's influential Chicago chapter began to formed in January 1995. Its members consisted mainly of individuals from ACORN, SEIU and the Democratic Socialists of America. Obama attended a New Party function and received their endorsement in 1995.

Note please, that these are all facts, and that the videos are the words of the organizers themselves.

The New Party organizer states quite clearly that the goal is to bring european style socialism to the United States. That alone tells you these people are not the 99%, and that they are un-American. Real communists have different goals, but there are many communists among these protesters, watch the video from Ch 13 in Sacramento last night. The reporter focuses on the lack of an articulable message, but watch for the communist at 1:58 into the video.
Web Link

The group that got this party started, started the New Party and got Barack Obama started in politics. As Mr Obama himself said just before his election "We are 5 days from fundamentally transforming America" Web Link


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Posted by Patriot
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 7, 2011 at 2:09 pm

"Herman Cain said of the protesters, "Don't blame Wall Street, don't blame the big banks, if you don't have a job and you're not rich, blame yourself," said Cain. "It is not someone's fault if they succeeded. It is someone's fault if they failed."

A reason you should never vote for someone like Herman Cain or Barack Obama. What he doesn't understand is that many of the people at the big banks and insurance companies did fail and failed completely as a result of their own bad decisions. The derivative traders at AIG's proprietary trading desk had no one to blame but themselves for running the company into bankruptcy. The trouble is that the Department of Treasury and the Federal Reserve rushed in to bail them out. In doing so not only did they reward failure, but they created large distortions in the markets and created counterproductive incentives that encourage a company to grow and take on more debt than is prudent. What's worse, a large number of the traders who brought down AIG never paid a price for their failure and in fact got large bonuses for their trouble, courtesy of the taxpayer.

Many people in the Tea Party movement and in these Wall Street protests sense that something was fundamentally wrong with these bailouts. There is a great deal of overlap in what they say. I disagree with much that is said by both these groups, but I have to agree when they speak out against the way these bailouts were handled. This was crony capitalism at its very worst. The Frank/Dodd bill never adequately addressed the too big to fail problem or the problem of properly regulating over-the-counter derivatives. Democrats and Republicans have both played a large role it creating the policies that caused our current economic problems.

Jimf01, when you going to join us in the Tea Party and the Wall Street protests in condemning the bailouts or at least condemning the way the bailouts were handled by both presidents and congress?


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Posted by Stacey
a resident of Amberwood/Wood Meadows
on Oct 7, 2011 at 2:51 pm

Stacey is a registered user.

Patriots or Communists? All I've seen are photos of young people protesting. It's a jobless generation who is facing a bleak future created by their elders.


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Posted by Fox cracks me up
a resident of Bonde Ranch
on Oct 7, 2011 at 9:44 pm

So let me get this straight. When the Tea Party protests over taxes, Fox makes them out to be heroes. And yet when younger people protest against the greed of Wall Street they are Communist. Brilliant.


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Posted by Steve
a resident of Parkside
on Oct 8, 2011 at 7:35 am

If you've listened to their ramblings, you can certainly understand why people would believe these immature, selfish kids are commies. But, just to play devils advocate, they could be patriotic commies, but they have to move to china. I wish them luck once the govt confiscates their iPhones and other toys that capitalism has provided them. Spoiled, ignorant kids, but commies....maybe


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Posted by Mike
a resident of Highland Oaks
on Oct 8, 2011 at 8:34 pm

These folks have a legitimate gripe: the major brokerages trashed the economy by granting and selling increasingly uncollectible mortgages, then walk away scot free while everyone else downstream suffers.

Irresponsible and unaccountable. I'd be angry, too, if I weren't sitting pretty.

Mike


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Posted by Patriot
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 8, 2011 at 9:59 pm

"but they have to move to china. I wish them luck once the govt confiscates their iPhones and other toys that capitalism has provided them."

Steve, I wonder if you've ever been to China. I have, and I've never heard of the government confiscating someone's iPhone or other "toys". In fact many tech companies sell more products in China than in the US. Life is good there and it is getting better every day. As to "moving to China", many of us in the Bay Area spend a lot of time in China, and some have moved there. Given the expanding, well managed economy, some of my colleges have found better opportunities in China than in the US.

Yes, there are many ignorant people in both the Tea Party and these protest Wall street movements. But, as I said above there is some overlap in what they say. Many in both movements have legitimate grievances with our government and with Wall Street. I hope something good comes from these movements because this country needs better leadership than we are getting from Republicans and Democrats.


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Posted by Patriot
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 8, 2011 at 10:03 pm

Jimf01,

Are you out there?


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Posted by Patriot
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 10, 2011 at 9:59 am

jimf01,

Would you please answer my question?


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Posted by jimf01
a resident of another community
on Oct 10, 2011 at 10:20 am

jimf01 is a registered user.

Jimf01, when you going to join us in the Tea Party and the Wall Street protests in condemning the bailouts or at least condemning the way the bailouts were handled by both presidents and congress?

This thread is not about the bailouts. But I will take issue with some of your justifications and arguments

Pat said "What he doesn't understand is that many of the people at the big banks and insurance companies did fail and failed completely as a result of their own bad decisions"

This is nonsense. These companies are operating (hopefully) within the laws and regulations laid out by the government. Are they looking for loopholes, are they dodging taxes, are they lobbying for breaks? Sure, they are.

You even contradict yourself when you say "Democrats and Republicans have both played a large role it creating the policies that caused our current economic problems"

The behemoth and labyrinth set of laws and regulations the bailed out companies had to deal with set the stage for these problems. Our government set all of this up, and then failed to provide proper oversight of the process. So not only did they set up the environment in which it occurred, they failed to control it when it was occurring.

But we are getting well off the subject. This thread is about the occupy protests, and not about your obsession with the bailouts.


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Posted by Patriot
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 10, 2011 at 11:42 am

"This is nonsense. These companies are operating (hopefully) within the laws and regulations laid out by the government. Are they looking for loopholes, are they dodging taxes, are they lobbying for breaks? Sure, they are."

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Are you saying AIG didn't fail? That AIG failed was the reason they got $182 billion from the Treasury department. They were bailed out. The company failed, our tax dollars bailed them out. They were rewarded for failure. I don't know why you talk about "...loopholes, are they dodging taxes, are they lobbying for breaks...". I'm not talking about any of those things. I'm talking about the bailouts. I never said any of them broke any laws.

"You even contradict yourself when you say "Democrats and Republicans have both played a large role it creating the policies that caused our current economic problems"

I don't contradict myself in any way. You say "behemoth and labyrinth set of laws and regulations the bailed out companies had to deal with set the stage for these problems." So it sounds like you're blaming government policies for causing the need for the bailouts (or something like that), and you're saying that somehow contradicts what I said? Taking your premise as a given, isn't it Republicans and Democrats who made the "laws and regulations" and "they failed to control it when it was occurring." Jim, for the life of me, I can't see any contradiction in what I said. Go read that thread someone named GX started about crony capitalism. There was a good discussion there about the culpability of both Republicans and Democrats in this.

You also seem to be blaming government for causing the failures at companies like AIG or the big investment houses. I'd just suggest that you should spend some time studying what happened at AIG. AIG got the biggest bailout of any company in US history. I would be hard pressed to see how any government regulation led to AIG needing a bailout. AIG's failure was entirely of its own making. AIG failed because it was on the wrong side of too many derivatives trades, specifically credit default swaps. Credit default swaps trades are about as unregulated a market as possible. There is no disclosure requirement. They don't trade on any public exchange. No one held a gun to their heads and forced them to make the bets they made. The government had no legal authority to regulate them. There was no " labyrinth set of laws and regulations" controlling derivatives trading and it was precisely this lack of regulation that allowed the problem to grow so large without anyone on the outside knowing. Google the "Commodity Futures Moderization Act" to read more.

Jim, maybe I have this all wrong, and if you show me where I'm wrong, I'll be happy to admit my mistake. As far as I can tell, the problems at AIG, and the big investment houses like Morgan Stanley were entirely of their own making, and mainly the result of bad derivatives trades. These trades were largely unregulated. The companies that made the trades were bailed out with tax dollars.

"This thread is not about the bailouts."

Oh but it is about the bailouts. Many of the protesters have made it an issue, just as many in the Tea Party had made it an issue. It is central to both movements. It is crony capitalism at its worst. People in both protest movements saw what happened and know in their hearts that something was fundamentally wrong.


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Posted by jimf01
a resident of another community
on Oct 10, 2011 at 11:56 am

jimf01 is a registered user.

This is what I mean about your obsession. Anything and everything related to politics can be about the bailouts, you even made the "Air & Space Museum" thread into a bailout thread. Go ahead and start the "Pat's bailout" thread and we can discuss. I will not argue bailouts with you on every thread


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Posted by Patriot
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 10, 2011 at 1:29 pm

Jim,

This thread is about bailouts. Read the original poster's text:

"... or are re-habilitated (government bailout). "

I would just reiterate that you should spend some time studying what happened with the bailouts of AIG and Morgan Stanley. I recommend looking at what was done by both by the Treasury (TARP) and the Federal Reserve (emergency loan programs and quantitative easing).

Please do answer my above questions. If you want to start a new thread, that is fine with me. The original poster specifically mentioned bailouts as a reason for the protest.

I don't have anything against you Jim, so I don't understand what sounds like hostility in your answers. I'm just asking you to take a closer look at what was done by our government.


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Posted by jimf01
a resident of another community
on Oct 10, 2011 at 4:35 pm

jimf01 is a registered user.

Pat - What do you think of this, written by a big 'L' Libertarian

Web Link

In my opinion, a far more incisive analysis than what our local blogger has provided.


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Posted by Patriot
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 10, 2011 at 11:01 pm

"But what conservatives are missing is that the protestors have a few good points. The U.S. political system is corrupt. Big corporations, lobbyists, and lawyers are taking advantage of the taxpayers. The bailout of banks and Wall Street was a massive mistake. "

That's pretty close to what I am saying.

"These big companies took capitalist risks, lost big, then went to the government with hat in hand like welfare queens..."

The language is a little over the top, but I agree again with what he says in this paragraph. I don't agree with everything, but I think he's right about a lot of it.


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Posted by steve
a resident of Pheasant Ridge
on Oct 18, 2011 at 4:05 pm

those are your only two choices
Patriots or Communists?
If your not a patriot on your issues your a communist. Great thinking.


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