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STYLE vs SUBSTANCE

Original post made by Debate Watcher, Another Pleasanton neighborhood, on Oct 11, 2012

You that guest you invite to the party and they just get so obnoxious you really don't care if they were the best dressed at the event. Well, I can't shake Joe Biden's condescending from my skull cap. I know, I know I should have paid attention to the details so I could check them against the fact checkers tomorrow morning, and then come away with a logical and reasonable decision on who won the debate and how it tipped the election.

The problem is I just can't. The scuttlebutt is that Joe KO'd Paul. I guess maybe, now that I think about it. See, I just can't get past the style issue. Maybe I'm shallow. Maybe I like to be around only beautiful people. OR: maybe obnoxious people turn my hide and make me run for cover.

Please! Someone tell me I being unreasonable; that I should come back to reason and listen to the issues. Just don't smile with a huge sh*t eating grin or .... you get the point.

Comments (30)

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Posted by Resident
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 11, 2012 at 9:30 pm

I do not like Ryan because I disagree with his views on many things, especially the social issues.

But I thought Biden was not professional at all. He kept laughing when Ryan was talking, and he also interrupted all the time. Ryan had better manners than Biden.

Imagine if Biden were talking to the president of Iran, and disagreed with what the guy said... how would it look if Biden laughed and interrupted? It is simply not professional.

I think though that Biden did better than in the past, and called Ryan on a few things like the embassy budget, the abortion issue, medicare to name a few.


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Posted by Debate listener
a resident of Canyon Oaks
on Oct 12, 2012 at 6:20 am

I'm the same way about my medical care. My doctor is old and he keeps insisting I do unpleasant things like get more exercise, cut my cholesterol, and eat more veggies. Now I can't get my skullcap to wrap around is, so I consulted my spiritual healer friend, who has dreamy blue eyes, and he told me to just buy some healing crystals to place over my refrigerator and sold me a magnet bracelet, which will bring down my cholesterol. I know, I know I should think about this critically, but it's much more comfortable not to. Besides, what's the harm?


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Posted by Jim
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 12, 2012 at 6:43 am

Yes, Debate Watcher, you ARE being unreasonable. Joe was
Fact Checking throughout. Lyin' Ryan looked like the little kid in Speech class who couldn't remember his lines.


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Posted by b
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 12, 2012 at 8:36 am

I've been hearing this over and over. The biggest criticism of Biden's performance is that he smiled/smirked too much, or wasn't "classy" enough. Really, that's the best you've got? This is the Vice Presidency of the United States. Maybe, just maybe, we should consider the issues...


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Posted by Mary
a resident of Country Fair
on Oct 12, 2012 at 9:18 am

I thought Biden came off as a complete troll, and those veneer teeth of his were frozen as a smile even as the subject was our young men and women dying in foreign lands and our unemployment rate being off the charts. How disgusting that he would smile in what should have been a serious forum. How could he say as the Vice President of the United States that he did not know that Libya was a terrorist attack is beyong me. If that is true only two answers are possible, he is lying or they are just beyond incompetent or maybe both. CNBC poll had Ryan winning 56% to 35% so I guess most came off disgusted by his behavior.


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Posted by mittens
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 12, 2012 at 9:34 am

Speaking of lying, Jim and b, how about uncle joe's take on libya? He contradicted what had been estbalsihed and documented in the security hearings earlier in the day. Still ying and covering up for the adminstration, who still can't get theri story straight.

Oh, it was a video that created the unrest, leaving inadequate security at the consulate, allowing militants to bring RPG's onto the embassy grounds and led to the mureder of 4 innocent Americans. Is that really your final answer, Joe?
One heartbeat away from the presidency....God help us.


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Posted by Cholo
a resident of Livermore
on Oct 12, 2012 at 9:39 am

somebody ate too many sweet potato latkes...with other treats...that's why it doesn't fit...the truth is the truth...fess up!


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Posted by Amazon
a resident of Pleasanton Meadows
on Oct 12, 2012 at 9:48 am

While I recognized that the title of this thread is style versus substance - its sad to see that various of the comments are focused on the style of the debaters, from criticizing their manners to commenting on their teeth. And if FDR was up there debating, you'd commenting that that he in a wheelchair, or he speaks out of the side of his mouth. Would be great to have an real conversation going here about the substance of the debate topics...instead of all these snarky style comments


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Posted by LOL
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 12, 2012 at 9:51 am

Funny how so many people claim Biden slammed Ryan when the flash polls say otherwise.

While I watched the entire debate, my wife would take only about 5m of Biden's antics and had to walk out.

And speaking of substance, I heard specific recommendations from Ryan and constant demonizing from Biden.

Is it any wonder that the CNN flash poll showed Ryan being more presidential than Biden?


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Posted by watch body language
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 12, 2012 at 10:07 am

Watch the debate again and notice that Ryan only smiles on the lower half of his face which is a phony smile. Biden smiles a lot but also notice it is genuine - the entire face participates. I trust Biden more than Ryan because at least he is showing his true self. Ryan is pretending to be something he is not. Politics is a rough sport.


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Posted by LOL
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 12, 2012 at 10:13 am

Gosh - I'm so glad that the fate of our next election and country can rely on the indepth personal analysis that you apply to these important decisions.

All is well now.


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Posted by Response
a resident of another community
on Oct 12, 2012 at 10:18 am

In response to the initial post, Biden's behavior is not much different is style and scope than Romney's aggressive and smirking performance during the first presidential debate. Ryan was whipped, the same way Obama was whipped. I agree with most poles/viewers, Biden was more specific with policy details, more generally knowledgeable, and clearly more experienced. Some Ryan statements were logically odd, for example it is OK to oppose the auto maker bailouts because Romney is a 'car guy'. And Ryan agrees with Obama's plan to leave Afghanistan, but in the same breath says it is a bad idea. I am still trying to figure out who the real Romney is.


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Posted by Kathleen Ruegsegger
a resident of Vintage Hills Elementary School
on Oct 12, 2012 at 10:25 am

Kathleen Ruegsegger is a registered user.

Biden's bluster, and a history of shooting off his mouth, is not something to slough off. If he behaves this way on camera, what is he like away from the public eye? That grin . . . there's a term for it. If posters here had a hard time with the bleached smile, smirks, laughs, interrupting, arms up in the air--imagine that posture in front of other world leaders.

I can't say Ryan was rock solid, but he at least can manage decorum. He was the only reason I could even watch the debate. Better that the debate could have reflected the seriousness of the topics. Biden was a distraction.


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Posted by Citizen
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 12, 2012 at 10:28 am

Just another grumpy old man . . . Get the hell off my lawn @!


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Posted by GX
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 12, 2012 at 10:33 am

Response - I was just viewing comments on the Washington Post site and on was remarkable similar to yours. Interesting.

Might I suggest you education yourself on the auto bailout topic? The Obama administration effectively administered a "managed bankruptcy" of GM and Chrysler. The same thing that Romeny suggested in in NYT oped.

The only difference between the two approaches is that Obama's favored the unions to the detriment of other bond holders (e.g. retirees of Indiana, etc.) and taxpayers. Keep in mind, taxpayers are still $50B in the hole with GM.

This is what erosion of rule of law and crony capitalism looks like.


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Posted by Sam
a resident of Oak Hill
on Oct 12, 2012 at 12:11 pm

Kathleen said: "Biden's bluster, and a history of shooting off his mouth, is not something to slough off. If he behaves this way on camera, what is he like away from the public eye? That grin . . . there's a term for it. "

Careful, Kathleen. You're revealing a little too much about yourself. A rare misstep.

:-)


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Posted by Resident
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 12, 2012 at 1:17 pm

" The biggest criticism of Biden's performance is that he smiled/smirked too much, or wasn't "classy" enough. Really, that's the best you've got? This is the Vice Presidency of the United States. Maybe, just maybe, we should consider the issues..."

OK, I dislike Ryan, and quite a bit, so much that I will not vote for Romney (even though I do not approve of the job Obama has done).

That said, Biden's interruptions and laughing throughout when Ryan spoke distracted from the ISSUES.

I wanted Biden to let all eyes be on Ryan when he was talking so people could see what a bad choice he and Romney are! Instead many were distracted by Biden's unprofessional behavior.

When you disagree with someone, or know someone is lying, you do not mock or interrupt: you let them finish, and then politely explain how they are lying or how you disagree.

As I said above, imagine if Biden is talking to the president of Iran - is he going to mock and interrupt him? Wouldn't it be better to remain professional regardless of what is said?

(I do not plan to vote for Romney btw, so this has nothing to do with my political preference)

------------

Sam:

why do you insist on attacking Kathleen (and me on another post about PUSD) just because we disagree with you?


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Posted by Hmmmmmmmmm
a resident of Country Fair
on Oct 12, 2012 at 1:46 pm

Good points Kathleen and by that I mean you brought up some of his previous episodes. Got kicked out of school for turning in a paper written by a published author, told a person in a wheelchair to stand up in the audience, told a black audience they will go back in chains, did not know that Libya was a threat, forgot that he voted for the war in Iraq even though in the debate he said he voted against it, did not know the unemployment rate in the state he lives in, and today when asked about not knowing that they Libyan consolate asked for help the white house responded that was Joes issue. To me he sounded like a drunk old man talking to his son and his son sitting there respectfully taking it without making the guy look any worse than he did. Time to fire him and send him back to whatever rock he crawled out from underneath.


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Posted by Smilin Joe
a resident of Birdland
on Oct 12, 2012 at 1:57 pm

Reminded me of Ryan up at the front of the front of the class on the chalkboard answering all of the questions and Biden sitting in the back of the room picking his nose and farting.


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Posted by Sam
a resident of Oak Hill
on Oct 12, 2012 at 2:14 pm

Resident said: "Sam: why do you insist on attacking Kathleen (and me on another post about PUSD) just because we disagree with you?"

I attack your posts because you distort facts, selectively ignore facts, readily throw out false accusations (e.g., your "$10K television" fiasco), and don't have the integrity to correct yourself and withdraw your accusations when someone points out that you're completely wrong. I attack Kathleen's posts for the same reasons, but in her case I'll also add the charge that she frequently tries to falsely cloak herself as a moderate.


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Posted by Mr. Geeneyuss
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 12, 2012 at 2:27 pm

The entire election is so much style without substance and so much stuff without style that it's hard to recognize the real thing but it comes around once in a while.

You just sometimes have to listen to a lot of useless talk!


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Posted by Resident
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 12, 2012 at 2:38 pm

"I attack your posts"

You attacked Kathleen personally on this forum. She gave her opinion about the debate, and you attacked her, not her post, there is a difference there.

And the 10K "fiasco" - that came from the head of the union, not me, and it was published by a newspaper.

We still do not have the facts on that one btw, because the PIO they hired in Nov 2011 (a little before the announced cuts to programs) has not, in the many emails she has sent up until now, bothered to mention what the expense was (tv, ipods, whatever) and how much it cost


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Posted by Resident
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 12, 2012 at 2:59 pm

"Reminded me of Ryan up at the front of the front of the class on the chalkboard answering all of the questions and Biden sitting in the back of the room picking his nose and farting. "

That's one way to put it, since one candidate remained professional and the other one did not.

As much as I dislike Ryan's ideas, I have to admit that his closing statement was quite good. I did not like what he said, but he definitely sounded good, and for people who have not been paying attention, I can see how they could have liked Ryan.

I have read the polls about the debate, and most say it was a tie, that both Biden and Ryan did well, but there is also talk about Biden "smirks"

I don't think though that this debate will necessarily get people to vote for Romney.

Ryan made it clear that he was "pro-life" and the Romney/Ryan administration would oppose abortion unless there is rape, incest of danger to the life of the mother. And Romney, when interviewed, confirmed not only that position, but that he would: 1) stop funding for Planned Parenthood and 2) appoint judges that share his view about overturning Roe v Wade

Even if women were distracted by Biden's behavior, I think they heard that, and even if people want to dismiss it: those issues are important for us because we do not want to go back to the dark ages. Women will be an important voting segment this election, and I can't see how anyone can support Romney/Ryan.

(and yes, I am fiscally very conservative, and I do not like Obama, I am for union reform, and I am very disappointed that the GOP continues to try to appeal to the religious, backwards segment of their party, the so called "base")

And the fiscally conservative people may, (I know I do), have an issue with Ryan's medicare reform. He wants to give vouchers for people 54 and younger but wants us to keep paying taxes to finance the ones already on Medicare (like his mom ). No, the problem is now and he either reforms it now, including getting his mom off medicare, or he finds a way to make it solvent for everyone, even the young who are now paying for both medicare and social security.


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Posted by Kathleen Ruegsegger
a resident of Vintage Hills Elementary School
on Oct 12, 2012 at 3:23 pm

Kathleen Ruegsegger is a registered user.

Sam, ". . . but in her case I'll also add the charge that she frequently tries to falsely cloak herself as a moderate."

Here is what I said: "I can't say Ryan was rock solid, but he at least can manage decorum. . . . Better that the debate could have reflected the seriousness of the topics. Biden was a distraction."

I didn't favor either debater, so there is no conclusion about where I stand. I believe I've said this before, there is no one party that represents my values.


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Posted by Hmmm
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 12, 2012 at 3:28 pm

Interesting reaction to the debate last night:

Kaminsky On "Hypocrite" Biden: "I'd Have Punched Him In The Face"

Web Link

But I'm positive this will not change anybody's mind. Both sides will look the other way with regards to their favorite candidates.


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Posted by Watcher
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 12, 2012 at 3:40 pm

Biden was an arrogant AXX ! Zero decoroum or dignity. He was dismissive, condesending, RUDE, cocky, laughing & ridiculing, shouting in moderators face, plus the inappropriately INTERRUPTED way too ofter. Biden created chattering chaos, making an adult debate impossible. Biden did not carry thru with the diginity set out during opening, nor play by gentlemanly rules.
Every time Biden switched from his nasty lies, lecturing & accusations, to the wide phony smile, I thought of the TV ad of dog with the full set of FALSE teeth with huge phony, toothy smile.
Moderator Rattich should have called Biden on his continuous, rude interruptions early on, so a 'debate' could happen. She let Biden go on and on, yet she often interrupted Ryan before thought or sentence was finished, and she'd switch to different question. (allowing Biden to always have first shot and free flowing reign).
I think that's why CNN's one hour phone poll on likeability was Ryan 53% - Biden 43%, Spent more time attacking Biden 70% - Ryan 19%. . .Overall winner Ryan 48% . Biden 44%


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Posted by Civility
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 12, 2012 at 3:44 pm

It is good to see the right not break out in a chorus of "liar, liar, liar" today. Maybe the left can learn some civility from the other side and recognize that their candidates aren't perfect.

Biden's debate 'facts' prompt White House clarifications

Web Link


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Posted by Sam
a resident of Oak Hill
on Oct 12, 2012 at 4:17 pm

'Resident' said: "You attacked Kathleen personally on this forum. She gave her opinion about the debate, and you attacked her, not her post, there is a difference there."

OK, then I apologize. In the future, I won't engage in personal attacks against you or Kathleen and will just restrict my comments to pointing out problems with your posts, such as the distortion of facts in your posts, the selective ignoring of facts in your posts, the false accusations in your posts (e.g., the "$10K television" fiasco), and the fact that your posts make no attempt to correct themselves or withdraw false accusations when someone points out that they're completely wrong.


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Posted by Resident
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 12, 2012 at 4:34 pm

" the fact that your posts make no attempt to correct themselves or withdraw false accusations when someone points out that they're completely wrong."

That someone did not back it out with facts, or did they? I can't find the forum.

I remember the union guy's statement on a newspaper, and I don't recall anyone correcting the 10K stuff with facts (agenda, minutes, press release, statement from the PUSD admin or anything OFFICIAL)

Again, I was hoping the PIO would clarify the facts through an email to the community, explaining the actual purchase (TV? ipads? what?), the reason behind it and the ACTUAL COST. But to this day, no such email even though we parents have received MANY emails from the district and none shows the info about the purchase and cost.

If you have FACTS, please share (not someone's comments but a file like board minutes, press release or something OFFICIAL)


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Posted by Tebow
a resident of Downtown
on Oct 12, 2012 at 5:42 pm

"If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet." Proverbs 29:9


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